Posted on 10/27/2009 5:39:04 PM PDT by SloopJohnB
I have seen it many times.
BTW, I should point out that these guys were NOT following their flight plan, original or amended, during most of the time they were not communicating with ATC.
ML/NJ
So teach me about these sophisticated auto-pilots. Why wouldn't they get the plane down to, or at least over, the outer marker? What happens once you have just reached your last waypoint? Does the thing revert, without warning, to an old-fashioned wing-leveler; or was it already flying off to their alternate?
ML/NJ
Yeah, that sure didn’t help.
Though even today with the Cochlear Implant I’d have a hard time of it.
I haven’t been in a front seat for 20 years, but I seem to recall that the guy handing you off to another approach center always wanted an acknowlegement that you heard the new frequency.
Don't worry, you get annunciations when that happens. The sad thing about the WN crew was that they claim not to have noticed any of this. Unbelievable! What's the benefit of having all of those really cool LCD panel displays showing maps galore and a bazillion annunciation modes if two guys are so clueless that they seem to have missed all of it?
Simultaneous, bilateral crew incapacitation is more than slightly difficult to swallow. It's impossible for my addled brain to absorb. Well, they are effectively grounded now, so the immediate threat to the public is removed. The flight deck crew is where they should be, and that's a good thing. Still, it will be interesting to see what the truth of the matter is.
From a thread about the F-16's this morning "Air traffic controllers reported the pilots initially failed to respond to commands as it passed from the air space controlled by the FAA Denver Center into the area controlled by the Minneapolis Center. The concern grew as the pilots ignored a command from the Minneapolis approach controllers to begin a descent for landing."
Thread has a news report that explains a little more about what ATC was doing or attempting to do if you haven't seen it yet. Still leaves some questions though.
More details in the FAA Revocation letter sent to the pilot.
http://komonews.s3.amazonaws.com/cheney_Revised.pdf
Which is why I said in my initial post on this thread that I think this was some sort of purposeful test.
ML/NJ
Approach control, as I have now said several times, does not work traffic at 37,000 ft.
I know a lot has changed since I quit. I am sure that digital messages have replaced the land lines to some extent, but when I flew it went something similar to this. Those who still fly, please excuse if my memory is rusty on some of the details.
Center calls MSP approach on the land line. Center says something like: NorthWest 357 (or whatever the flight number is) is cleared to 12,000. ..blah blah whatever.
The approach controller sees the transponder code with an altitude readout and has a flight strip on the flight. He acknowledges that he has got the blip identified and the center then hands the flight off to approach.
Or that is the way it worked then as well as I remember it.
It is amazing how much detail one forgets. I used to have every frequency memorized along the routes I flew regularly and now the only freq I can remember on my home airport is tower and ground. I can't remember clearance delivery, airport advisory, approach or departure.
By the way, I forgot in my earlier post that it is my recollection that the controllers used to have a feature where they could block codes from flights above or below their territory because the tags on the display could be so thick that they prevented the controller from seeing his own traffic. Another reason the controller would not pay any attention to a raw blip on his screen. He would only know that it was a target not under his control and of no interest.
In the case in point, he could turn the feature back on and read the tags on everything. But he would be unlikely to do so unless center was asking for his assistance or giving him a hand off.
I assume that is still an available feature.
So MSP approach would not be giving instructions to a flight at 37,000 fit for several reasons, one being that every flight level down to 18,000 is under the control of the center and the approach controller would be descending the flight through all of those levels but not talking to any of the flights in those levels.
Now it is entirely possible that MSP approach called the flight on every one of their frequencies in an effort to establish contact in the hopes that the flight had one of those freqs set up. That is much more likely. It may also be that the center gave approach the permission to issue a clearance to him, but that is not likely. The center probably would have told MSP to try him and if successful have him switch to XXX.xx. Anyone actively flying today and knows what he is talking about, please feel free to correct me if my memory is rusty or if there have been major changes in procedure.
Yeah.
My experience with them was the same. They did not want this scenario on their watch.
Plus there is always the chance that if you did not repeat the freq, you might copy it down as the wrong freq.
I forgot.
Although the flight levels are the exclusive territory of the centers, they also control down to 10,000 at MSP so that is 7 more altitudes with potential traffic.
I did not read your link on the FAS letter until after I posted and found from that that this took place around 8:00 PM.
If MSP is as busy as it was a few years ago, I would assume lots and lots of traffic.
MSP is not the biggest city in the country by a long shot, but they do have a lot of traffic due to the excellent business climate there.
Another interesting thing. I saw in the letter that the flight was cleared for an in route phase at 35,000. So did they really end up at 37,000? Did they get a new FL after they got off and running or did they bust another rule?
Interesting.
I wish the FAS would declare that they committed a crime so they could impound those laptops.
I will bet they were not even turned on. Something else is behind this and I don’t go for the “it was a test” theory. No one is going to screw the schedules of 140 however many passengers and scramble for a test.
If the laptops were on, looking at miss boobs frolicking with Mr. Porn would be the only thing ON A LAPTOP that could cause two guys to go into a 90 minute trance.
Of course, the aliens could have sucked out their brains an taken them to the mother ship.
Bu the way, I also read somewhere that in addition to the company freqs, they now have email that rings the crew. So add another audio feature to the mystery.
“I think this was some sort of purposeful test.”
You mean, on the part of the crew? Or perhaps, an act by the crew at the behest of some governmental agency (good guys)? I’m not terribly sure what entity would benefit by this.
I do not doubt for a moment re. your beliefs. It has gone well beyond that by now though. Were it an act of commission (on the part of a governmental authority), someone would have already thrown the chocks under this one.
Occam’s Razor may be the best method of solving the mystery. If there are multiple possibilities, simply pick the simplest. Unfortunately, I cannot believe the story that is being told by the crew (call me a cynic). It stinks on ice. If they were actually asleep, they would have much better off to just tell the truth. Coming up with a cock and bull story that no airline pilot would believe simply reduces them from careless, to careless liars.
I would like to give your suspicion its due, but I’m still conflicted. I cannot imagine what such a test would prove. There would be no benefit to anyone that I can think of, and the good guys could just file a flight plan and run a military ‘37 down the route if they were testing response times, etc. It is not unusual to do such a thing. A YF-71 was used rather early on to test the response times of the interceptor folks in Las Vegas. The pilots were never told what they were chasing, but the “object” moved away at such a clip there was all sorts of conjecture as to what the target was (UFO). The interceptor driver didn’t figure it out till 20+ years later when doing some research, so the possibility of a test is not out of the realm of possibility. There are just easier ways to do it than using civilians.
The simple explanation is that they fell asleep, but they would have to be very sound sleepers indeed to miss the caterwalling from a slighted and enraged A320 (They literally spew data. The A320 is not like a real airplane. It screams like a girl ;-) ). Suffice to say that the aircraft would have been very noisy, rather early on. They were not using their laptops, unless they were employing them as pillows.
I’m not the best to use as a source, as I never slept in my career while occupying the left or right seat (This is true, as I was always too terrified!). This anomoly made it difficult to snooze while I was deadheading as well. I just cannot imagine sleeping through all of noise that such an aeronautical transgression would have generated, yet the sleeping bit is all I can come up with. Even that is difficult to fathom. Weird all around.
When I quit, I quit.
So I got totally out of touch with wha is going on.
But as a result of trying to explain how approach control works (version 1998 and earlier), i did a search on approach radar and was surprised to find this link.
You may know about it, but if you don’t take a look. It gives y ou and idea what is going on during rush hour at the major terminals.
And MSP, although not as busy as ATL, is busy because of being a NorthWestern hub, along with all of the other carriers that stop there and considering all of the big companies like 3M, etc., that have corporate flight departments.
Anyway, go to this link and have fun.
We're both old curmudgeons. ;~))
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