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This looks like Chaff to me, I don't understand alot of it, but it looks like people trying to counter a proven fact with nonsense...
1 posted on 09/16/2009 1:27:10 PM PDT by Admiral_Zeon
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To: Admiral_Zeon

Every time tax rates are cut revenue increases. What more proof do you need that we are to the right of the maximum.


2 posted on 09/16/2009 1:30:27 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Admiral_Zeon
lose weight by eating more ice cream!

It would be hard to find a more inappropriate analogy.

3 posted on 09/16/2009 1:31:12 PM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

Well I guarantee that if my taxes go up any more I’m definitely gonna “shrug”. Sounds like they are trying to argue that taxes can go up a little more without hurting revenues. I find that hard to believe.


4 posted on 09/16/2009 1:32:59 PM PDT by GoDuke
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To: Admiral_Zeon

Increased taxation provides a nice incentive to do the kind of work that pays in under-the-table ‘cashy money.’


5 posted on 09/16/2009 1:33:01 PM PDT by the anti-liberal
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To: Admiral_Zeon

This is a future model. What is needed is a historical graph. One that shows the real tax rate (Fed plus state) against total revenues (Fed, + State income + State sales) for the past 50 years.


6 posted on 09/16/2009 1:33:24 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Admiral_Zeon

You can avoid all this by using the Charlie Rangel “Instant Tax Cut” software package. Guaranteed to cut your taxes!


7 posted on 09/16/2009 1:33:36 PM PDT by The Sons of Liberty (FUBO - You Lie!!!)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

This assumes that we want the govt to get the most money it can. Only a population of willing slaves thinks that increasing govt revenue is a good thing.


8 posted on 09/16/2009 1:34:00 PM PDT by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

Maximum revenue to the Treasury is repeatedly and reliably analyzed by economists to be at 22% of GDP.

The U.S. tax take is >35% of GDP. State and Local included.

Therefore, the Treasury could RAISE RECEIPTS by lowering taxes, since more people would work more, more than offsetting losses due to rate reductions.

Smart liberals know this. It is proved.

However, smart liberals also know that ENVY wins elections. So they convince their green-with-envy constituents that they will raise taxes on those evil rich neighbors, and the stupid proles vote for the libs.

Only through the purposeful manipulation of the human instinct to envy in violation of G-d’s Commandment do the liberals achieve votes and office.

EVIL.


9 posted on 09/16/2009 1:37:15 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (NEXT: Sting ACORN on Voter Registration.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

There are so many false premises behind the author’s argument that it’s not worth listing them all. However, the most important one is the idea that maximizing the government’s tax take is any sort of ideal or overriding goal. The goal is to adequately fund proper and legitimate government functions. Taking any more than that is not just counterproductive, it’s evil.


11 posted on 09/16/2009 1:39:37 PM PDT by sourcery (Party like it's 1776!)
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To: Admiral_Zeon
Remember the Laffer Curve does not just apply to peoples willingness to work but their willingness to cheat. Think of it this way. If the tax on a $20 bottle of booze is $0.01 nobody is going to gripe about paying 20.01. But if the taxes are $10, the mob is going to be running booze in from Canada, selling it for $25 and pocketing the difference. The tax rate goes up, but because cheating becomes more prevalent, your revenues go down. If taxes are low it isn't worth the effort to cheat or risking the consequences of getting caught. As the taxes get higher it becomes worth while to hire a tax lawyer and find every possible loop hole. And if you work for ACORN invent a few dependents just for good measure.

You also have to factor in the cost of enforcement. As cheating becomes more wide spread you have to spend more and more on enforcement. At some point it costs you more than a dollar worth of enforcement in order to collect that next dollar of taxes.
12 posted on 09/16/2009 1:41:22 PM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world, and they are all out to get me.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon
Did Laffer study the difference between the long and short term Laffer Curves? For example, if Obama and his pet Congress were to jack tax rates through the roof, I might have to work harder next year in order to meet my bills. No matter what the tax rate is I still have to pay my mortgage, feed myself, and pay for electricity and the internet bill to FReep. Thus higher taxes might result in higher revenues next year.

However, in the longer term investors are less likely to invest in the United States. Consumers will learn to live with less deciding that they would rather have a 500 sq. ft. apartment and only work 40 hours a week to pay for it instead of the 80 hours they needed on their old houses after taxes. They will also learn to work off the books and might even abandon the US for a lower tax job. Thus the long term Laffer Curve has a peak at a much lower tax rate than the short term tax rate.

If the government takes most of the harvest, it might make more sense to eat the seed corn and let the land lay fallow next year.

14 posted on 09/16/2009 1:49:48 PM PDT by KarlInOhio ("I can run wild for six months ...after that, I have no expectation of success" - Admiral Obama-moto)
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To: Admiral_Zeon
The right value for tax rates is *not* the position that maximizes revenue by milking the populace for as much as possible.

It is well below that, to allow real investment to grow the economy over time.

The article is still stuck in first partial land. That is better than the delusion that the government can just take everything, but it is still bad economics and bad policy.

15 posted on 09/16/2009 1:49:51 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: Admiral_Zeon

“Shut up and do science”


17 posted on 09/16/2009 1:52:31 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Fiscal conservatism without social conservatism is dead.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

An essential point about the Laffer Curve: there are TWO points that yield the exact same level of tax revenue. One is at the high rate the other at the low rate. People who foolishly think that boosting rates can boost taxes have more faith in the compliance/compulsion culture of Washington than they do in the natural yearning of everyone to keep as much of their own income as possible.


19 posted on 09/16/2009 1:54:49 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Admiral_Zeon
If the government could get more tax revenue from lowering the tax rate (based on the Laffer Curve), then it makes perfect sense for them to do it. However; even if this article is correct (which it's not) just because they could make more revenue by raising the tax rate does not mean that they should do it, or that they even have the right to try.
20 posted on 09/16/2009 1:56:40 PM PDT by Family Guy (I disagree with what you said, but I'll defend to the death your right to shut up.)
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To: Admiral_Zeon
Laffer curve is a classic application of minmax / minimax rule in game theory to the tax system.

Combined with Hauser's Law, it is an excellent rule to figure out when the tax rates become counterproductive and actually lead to diminishing returns, i.e. instead of growing the economy ("the pie") and tax revenues, they start shrinking the tax revenues.

Unfortunately, many economists make a mistake in calculating only federal income tax revenues in the USA, partly because it's ideologically convenient, partly due to difficulty to account for multitude of separate taxes, i.e., states and municipalities income and sales taxes (including use, "sin" and other taxes) as well as special purpose taxes, such as Social Security.

There is also no accounting to implicit "taxes" (business or personal expenses) caused by excessive regulations from federal, state and municipal regulations.

Reference to Kurt Hauser's Law :
You Can't Soak the Rich [Regardless of tax rates, federal tax revenue is always 19.5% of GDP] - FR / WSJ, 2008 May 20, by David Ranson

Comment on power of combining Hauser's Law with Laffer Curve :
You Can't Soak the Rich [Regardless of tax rates, federal tax revenue is always 19.5% of GDP] - FR / WSJ, 2008 May 20, by David Ranson

21 posted on 09/16/2009 1:57:43 PM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

You can play Evony and figure out Laffer Curve. It’s pretty straighforward.


22 posted on 09/16/2009 1:58:17 PM PDT by Dr.Deth
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To: Admiral_Zeon
My problem with the Laffer curve is that it assumes revenue based on an average tax rate. The problem with our progressive system is that each tax rate collects revenue at a varied amount. The highest tax rate collects the most revenue from the fewest people. The lowest tax rate collects 0 revenue from a good amount of the population.

I actually won this debate with an econ professor in college. I also asked what is the basis of a model and forecast that predicts what consumers/tax payers will spend and what their threshold is? He could not answer this.

I argue that supply and demand drives what revenue potential taxes will produce and that the unemployment rate affects the government's take of taxes more than the average tax rate. Cutting taxes is affective because it reduces costs and puts more cash into citizen pockets. Freed up capitol in businesses and for citizens inspires consumption and drives unemployment down. I would argue that our country is to the right (over) the most efficient taxation level based on historical evidence. Since these models and history cannot be tied together, I do not put much faith in it. Our number one problem is that government spends more than American's will tolerate funding. So they borrow and steal.

23 posted on 09/16/2009 1:58:55 PM PDT by Tenacious 1 (Government For the People - an obviously concealed oxymoron)
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To: Admiral_Zeon

Is it the total tax burden, Federal, state, and local. It has been my experience that the homeowner ultimately carries the freight with real estate and school taxes increasing when ever any other taxes are cut.

The tax people are very creative when it comes to extracting money from a property owner. The studies rarely comment on the inefficiencies and graft inherent in the present system.


28 posted on 09/16/2009 2:10:05 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine
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To: Admiral_Zeon
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Preparing to shrug...

30 posted on 09/16/2009 2:17:10 PM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
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