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To: spunkets; betty boop; TXnMA; DallasMike; MHGinTN; metmom
Rational reality means reality is logical. The fact that it is logical not only allows it to be described by mathematics; it allows it to exist!

The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences (Wigner) is like God’s copyright notice on the cosmos.

There is no such projection. The fact that this universe has it's own gemetric structure, which differs from that from which it arose as a phase change, does not mean that 4d structure exits in the higher physics. It can be understood by noting this world appears as a phase change. That phase does not exist in the phase from which it changed from. The energy did though.

Again, a phase change is physical. It requires space, time and physical causality to occur – it requires preexistence of a "from" phase state.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Physical causality requires both space and time.

In your argument, each of these is taken as a "given."

But they are not axiomatic in physical cosmology, cosmology, philosophy or theology.

So if you wish to embrace them as your core beliefs, then you are certainly free to do so.

But they do not constitute objective truth by virtue of your belief in them.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4"

This passage refers to a person. It says all things that were made were made by Him. It may be hard to grasp, but nevertheless, reality is and was not made.

No, God IS. That is His Name, I AM.

What you call “reality” is merely a part of the Creation.

Man is not the measure of God.

I’m heading out now, but will check back later this evening.

69 posted on 09/16/2009 1:32:26 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
" The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences (Wigner) is like God’s copyright notice on the cosmos."

There's nothing unreasonable about it. Reality is logical. Mathematics provides the tools for the logical representation of reality.

" Again, a phase change is physical. It requires space, time and physical causality to occur – it requires preexistence of a "from" phase state.

A phase change is physical yes. It requires preexistence of a from phase state yes. Now note that the space time you are refering to is a result of the phase change. It didn't exist before that.

So... "In the absence of space, things cannot exist."

The things in this world did not exist, because this world did not exist.\

"In the absence of time, events cannot occur."

Time for this world started when the phase change occured. Time in general already existed, because it's a dimension of reality and in particular, that reality from which this world arose out of.

" Physical causality requires both space and time."Causality is an element of reality. It is not necessary for any particular world to exist in order for causality to exist. If the space-time of this world is required for causality, how did God cause creation?

" In your argument, each of these is taken as a "given.""

No. The only given is A=A. IOWs, the conservation of energy holds.

" What you call “reality” is merely a part of the Creation."

No. Creation is only a subset of reality. Reality includes all that is.

71 posted on 09/16/2009 1:53:32 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Alamo-Girl
"Man is not the measure of God."

Gen 1:26-27

" Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God was the blueprint for man. Note that the rational sentient being man is equivalent to God according to this passage, except for having a beginning. There are no other exceptions. That's acknowledged by the words of God Himself: John 10 33-36
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[Psalm 82:6]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

74 posted on 09/16/2009 2:23:05 PM PDT by spunkets
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