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To: Alamo-Girl
" The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences (Wigner) is like God’s copyright notice on the cosmos."

There's nothing unreasonable about it. Reality is logical. Mathematics provides the tools for the logical representation of reality.

" Again, a phase change is physical. It requires space, time and physical causality to occur – it requires preexistence of a "from" phase state.

A phase change is physical yes. It requires preexistence of a from phase state yes. Now note that the space time you are refering to is a result of the phase change. It didn't exist before that.

So... "In the absence of space, things cannot exist."

The things in this world did not exist, because this world did not exist.\

"In the absence of time, events cannot occur."

Time for this world started when the phase change occured. Time in general already existed, because it's a dimension of reality and in particular, that reality from which this world arose out of.

" Physical causality requires both space and time."Causality is an element of reality. It is not necessary for any particular world to exist in order for causality to exist. If the space-time of this world is required for causality, how did God cause creation?

" In your argument, each of these is taken as a "given.""

No. The only given is A=A. IOWs, the conservation of energy holds.

" What you call “reality” is merely a part of the Creation."

No. Creation is only a subset of reality. Reality includes all that is.

71 posted on 09/16/2009 1:53:32 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; metmom; MrB; GodGunsGuts

No. Creation is only a subset of reality. Reality includes all that is.


Nope...exactly backwards logic: reality is a subset of creation. (see my tagline).

Look at it this way...I have a woman now that’s 98 and hallucinating. It’s very real to her, she even talks to a fellow by the name of Paul in her room that’s not there. She even understands she’s hallucinating and asks if he and certain other peole, things, events are real...

anyway, it’s clear that the hallucinations are not reality, and we and even she understands this. Dreams could just as well fall under this category, as well as liberal thinking.

Nevertheless, the hallucinations or...NON-reality she experiences are present, existing outside reality, just like dreams, liberal logic, etc. are all experienced and all are a subset of God’s creation.

Reality must be interfaced with via intelligence in order to define it, experience it, measure it, etc...and like our mind, reality is given to us by our creator.

God could have chosen to remain alone in His reality, thus only HE would experience reality via His mind, but if He were not in existence, there would BE no reality, as it were.

There is nothing greater than God, certainly nothing in His own creation is greater than God and reality as humans are able to understand it, is a subset of His wonderful creation.

Nothing is greater than or “above” God. Nothing outside God exists without His creating it. Reality is fully and wholly dependent on God, not the other way around.


75 posted on 09/16/2009 3:11:01 PM PDT by tpanther (Science was, is and will forever be a small subset of God's creation.)
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