Did Obama Order George Tiller's Murder? (Article about FreeRepublic Alert)

Bliefnet ^ | June 1, 2009 | Steven Waldman

[Zakeet]

I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.

But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.

First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.

SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.

Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.

Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:

upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?

Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:

imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.

Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)

Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...

Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.

Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.

UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?

steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?

eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.

353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.

mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.

and from another thread:

Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.

Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?

Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.

stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.

and this thread:

Lexington Green:
What goes around...

newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.

wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evil

Sloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.

The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.

wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.

whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.

P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.

mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.

tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.

gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.

MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.

[betty boop]

...I think we miss a larger principle when we focus on the abortion-murder question that the pro-abortionists want us to rather than the “violence begetting violence” principle; the cause and effect rules that God has built into the system....

Abortion and murder are just two sides of the same coin; both symptomatic of the devaluing of the image of God in man.

Oh so brilliantly put, Blue-Duncan! You have my gratitude.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you both so very much for this wonderful sidebar about the will of God!

Truly, no one can thwart the will of God. He will see His will done, darkness is no obstacle to Him.

Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. - Jer 1:12

If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee]. – Psalms 139:11-12

We can see that in Pharaoh and in Judas Iscariot. The darkness did not thwart the will of God.

And we can see it in God permitting those who are not among His adopted children (John 1:12-13, Romans 8) to speak His Truth. In this case, Nebuchadnezzar, Greek poets, Caiaphas and Gamaliel:

Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me. How great [are] his signs! and how mighty [are] his wonders! his kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion [is] from generation to generation. – Daniel 4:1-3

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. – Acts 17:28

And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year. Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. – John 18:13-14

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. – Acts 5:38-39

None of these were men "after God's heart" but all had a part to play. Jude warns us:

Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. - Jude 8-10

Under the laws of this country, Roeder is innocent until proven guilty. I respect that and consider him innocent under the laws of men. And God will hold him and Tiller and everyone to His perfect justice.

For our God [is] a consuming fire. - Hebrews 12:29

So no matter what is happening in this world or what the verdicts may be, I am quite certain that God's will shall be done.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. - Romans 8:28

God's Name is I AM.

[Shaun_MD]

“Or the 50.5% of people who claim to be pro-life but don’t ever take any action to show their outrage at the millions of lives slaughtered since 1973”

Showing outrage and righteous indignation can only do so much. All you can do is teach and pray to God that you can reach people. Ultimately, the outcome will depend upon reaching the woman considering an abortion. Not by vigilantism. You can blow up clinics, shoot doctors, and even outlaw abortion and it will still happen. You must find a way to reach the woman considering an abortion or nothing changes.

[Alamo-Girl]

With the (ill-named) Justice Department now on the case, look for things to get very, very "polarized." My suspicion is AG Holder would like to "use" Roeder as a pretext to go after political dissent. You know, those nasty right-wing radical domestic terrorists that are standing in the way of King O's magical plans for the American future. How DARE they stand up for LIFE when the issue is already "settled law?"

I strongly agree. I would not be surprised to see the present administration label all pro-life groups as hate mongers because they refuse to call an unborn child a fetus and the killing of the unborn child, a medical procedure.

This is the tyranny and oppression of political correctness, don't use the terms "mom" and "dad" et al.

Control the language, control the people.

It strikes at the very heart of the Freedom of Speech.

God have mercy on us all!

[Gene Eric]

>> You must find a way to reach the woman considering an abortion or nothing changes.

That’s the best option and the most realistic.

If the law recognizes the unborn child, fetus, as a person, that would likely criminalize many forms of abortion and dramatically reduce the number of abortions. Currently, abortion in general is the legal killing of human life. This oppressive fact should be emphasized in public discourse.

Removing the financial incentives for abortion providers would reduce abortions.

Disassociating the Life cause from the perceived clutches of ‘right-wing intolerance’ would foster greater awareness about the tragedies of abortion. I emphasize ‘perceived’.

The consequences of abortion should be taught in the post-pubescent school years.

[betty boop]

Control the language, control the people.... It strikes at the very heart of the Freedom of Speech.

Astutely, truly noted, dearest sister in Christ!

Progressives of the Alinsky type know that for most people, "the perception is the reality." Thus they try to control the way we perceive the world, in effect, by "reinventing the language." Therefore, people who do not accept a word like "pro-choice" — because it denotes a fictitious reality — must be shut up, censored.

So I say, put on the popcorn! And prepare to settle back and enjoy the three-ring circus that King O and his minions are even now preparing. It's "coming to your hometown soon."

God willing, let it be widely seen that this is no less than the struggle for America's soul. We who hold life sacred must vigorously exercise our Freedom of Speech; for if we "don't use it" now, we are virtually guaranteed to "lose it." "Use it or lose it." That's about what it comes down to. Or so it seems to me. JMHO FWIW

I join in your prayer: May God have mercy on us all!

[HarleyD]

Sometimes the judgment of God is brought about by evil acts. As some of you guys have been preaching to me for the last decade, nothing happens that isn't ordained of by God. Do you believe your own words?

Absolutely. Why things happen the way they do is a mystery. However, we know they happen this way for the very best-at least for Christians.

I have oft seen the following verse quoted theologically [Ish 45:6-7], but are you willing to quote from it on a practical basis? Is it applicable to this situation?

Sure it's applicable. The Lord is involved in all things. Consider the following verse:

Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?

God allows our evil to bring about His good. That doesn't excuse our evil nor does it make God the author of our evil. It only means that God removed His hand of grace to allow it to occur to bring about His purpose.

For some unknown reason, God has allowed evil men (disguised as church deacons) to commit these barbarous acts and for us to witness this holocaust. Perhaps it's to help Christians understand how precious life is. Perhaps its to get Christians off their duffs and speak out. Perhaps it's to remind us of what is evil-somthing that is sorely lacking these days. Maybe its for us to wake up to the fact that we need to kick these kinds of people out of our churches-er?

We sometimes don't truly understand the ramifications of these events until years after when we're gone and others mourn over what we have done. How many people who have abortions come to know Christ in a personal way because of it?

People have too narrow of a focus. Everything is about the here and now. The 70, 80 or 100 years we spend here are really insignificant when measured against the eternal clock. It is not my place to say but I suspect all those babies who were murdered at the hands of Tiller are enjoying Paradise at this moment and will always continue to enjoy Paradise. And perhaps their good deed for which they've received a crown is that they were martyred for this very cause. I'm not so sure that the same can be said about Tiller, even though he was an usher in church and probably gave them lots of money.

Some people sink lower than others. There are levels of evil. I can only pray that there are levels of punishment in hell.

You can stop praying. There are levels of judgment although how this works in hell I'm not sure.

[betty boop]

I do not feel like I am complicit in Roeder's actions by accurately describing what abortion "is" under God's Law - I am merely speaking truth. If anything, I am the scope on the rifle.... There is no blood on my hands.

Amen to that, dearest sister in Christ!

To say that we are "complicit" in Roeder's act simply because we sanctify life is to play into the destructive hands of King O and his minions.

[Gene Eric]

Good points. Add to your list the education system that’s eager to teach all things related to sex save the harsh reality of abortion.

[P-Marlowe]

Good response.

I didn't know you could write. :-)

[muawiyah]

Back in the dark ages when folks were allowed to post a master directory of the identities of the abortionists who'd been killed (great site, wonderful dripping blood effect), one fellow stood out ~ he'd been killed on his way (out of/into) a beer joint somewhere.

The motive was robbery.

Frankly, no one cared about his death ~ not NARAL, not any RTLF organization, etc.

NO ONE CARED.

It had something to do with the pure innocence of the individual who assassinated him ~ just a robber, with a gun. Definitely one of God's own pure avenging angels, or a saint in dark clothes, or ............ well, what else could he be. His cover for his act was perfect, but does anyone know his motive?

[P-Marlowe]

To say that we are "complicit" in Roeder's act simply because we sanctify life is to play into the destructive hands of King O and his minions.

Complicit is obviously the wrong word. I take it back.

I'm not really sure what the word is that spells out our collective guilt. Maybe there is none. Maybe there is no "collective" guilt.

Obviously many have sacrificed time, money, jail time, prayer time, and done all within our legal means to try to end the abortion holocaust. But the problem lies betwixt what can be done legally and what must be done morally.

50 million babies have been sacrificed on the stainless steel altars of Molech and I fear that God's judgment on this nation is not going to be pretty.

While we may not be "complicit" in what happened last week, we must be cognizant of the coming judgment that most assuredly awaits this nation and whether or not we share in any guilt for anything that has happened, we must remember that the rain falls upon the just and the unjust.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You misread my post. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Marlowe's comparison was not that the deaths of the holocaust were similar to the deaths of the Jews in concentration camps (which I agree with). Marlowe was comparing my reaction to abortion to the German peoples' reaction to the ovens. Marlowe went so far as to ask me "Will you wash your hands of your "idle words?"

But the difference between my reaction to abortion and the German peoples' reaction to the ovens is profound. Most of them knew what was happening and sanctioned it.

Maybe you missed xzins' post 303 where he wrote: "For those who have vigorously maintained that abortion is murder, they are complicit in Roeder’s act."

Are you "complicit" in Roeder's act of killing Tiller, Wagglebee? I don't think you are. I'm not.

MARLOWE: I call it "murder," yet I and millions like me, stand around like the townsfolk of Auschwitz and pretend that smell coming from the forest is just rotten sewage.

I'm not "standing around" pretending anything. Nor are you. My words, like everyone who speaks out against abortion, are not "idle words" just because we don't pick up a rifle and blow some abortionist's head off.

My point is that abortion and Auschwitz are identical "blood crimes committed as satanic sacrifices by godless men."

[muawiyah]

We only have the word of the members of that particularly apostate Lutheran church that Tiller was shot by the accused. In fact the accused has pled not guilty.

I suspect very few in that congregation can get through cross examination with their stories intact.

[Jeff Head]

Harley is right. For Roeder to have done this surely God removed His hand from him and said, "Go do what you naturally desire." And that desire may well condemn him. All according to the will and purpose of God.

I believe it is not nearlty as straight forward as that in terms of the condemnation. It is straight forward regarding the will of God.

However, by such a definition and logic on the condemnation part, all of the patriots who fought at Lexington, Concord, Bunker Hill, etc. before there ever was a Declaration of Independence fall under such a broad brush and would stand condemned...and I do not believe that is the case.

Those men killed Englishmen., soldiers sent on the errand of the law of their day. They were considered traitors and murderes...and if the word had been in use back then, terrorists...by their own government and by the torrie part of the population who wanted to remain under the King...under their "rule of law".

Yet I believe that not only did God work through those who rebelled as a whole (understanding that in specific cases the judgements of God for them will be according God's ability to judge each of their hearts and where they stand according to His Sons atonement), I believe God supported them as a whole and lended them His Hand.

This is clear to all of us from history's perspective...but was certainly not so clear at all to many at the time...other than those patriots who rebelled against, fought against, and yes, even killed to defeat a corrupt and unjust law at the time.

We have a corrupt law amongst us today that is protecting the most gruesome, bloody, atrocious holocaust imaginable and the practitoners of it. A holcaust of 50 million and more innocents.

That is the truth.

What Roeder did was illegal...there is no doubt about that.

I cannnot judge his soul, nor will I try.

I know this, I believe that most of us, if our child was carted off to some kind of government euthenasia clinic to be killed, each and every one of us would probably do wahtever it took...whatever it took...to stop it.

Would we do so for other children? Should we?

I also know that a bloody, genocidal murderer of 60,000 will murder no more...and I expect that the man that killed him, Roeder, will also probably kill no more.

Man will have his justice through the people of this country...God will have His according to His infinite knowledge, mercy, and justice.

THE GRUESOME TRUTH OF THE ABORTION HOLOCAUST & THE DEATH OF DR. TILLER [Warning: A graphic photo of death & dismemberment]

“It is the grimmest of ironies that one of the most savage, barbaric acts of evil in history began in one of the most modernized societies of its time, where so many markers of human progress became tools of human depravity: science that can heal, used to kill; education that can enlighten, used to rationalize away basic moral impulses; the bureaucracy that sustains modern life, used as the machinery of mass death, a ruthless, chillingly efficient system where many were responsible for the killing, but few got actual blood on their hands.”–Barack Obama April 24, 2009, Holocaust Remebernce Day, Chicago Sun Times.

[muawiyah]

Interesting proposal ~ shoot doctors.

No, it's "shoot abortionists". However, that's not exactly the way this has to be done, and I thought I'd already established that we shouldn't be talking about our methods at this place at this time in this thread.

We must first grab them by their hearts and their minds will follow.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Let's keep this straight. xzins used the word "complicit" in post 303...

XZINS: "For those who have vigorously maintained that abortion is murder, they are complicit in Roeder’s act."

You, Marlowe, wrote in post 306...

P-MARLOWE: "Those of you lurkers and posters who claim that ABORTION IS MURDER, but think you are not in some way culpable in the death of Tiller, are you just uttering IDLE WORDS?"

These kinds of heated remarks reveal the depth of emotion and condemnation that is elicited by a "medical procedure" which is actually outright murder sanctioned by the state.

God help us.

[xzins]

A blessing from God and a quiver full of grand-arrows. :>)

[wagglebee]

Okay, I understand now, I did misread portions of your post.

[P-Marlowe]

Marlowe went so far as to ask me "Will you wash your hands of your "idle words?"

Again I have been thinking more emotionally than logically. But the fact remains, that literally none of us would stand on the street corner while some man killed an innocent child. If we had the power to shoot him and that would save the life of that child, none of us would hesitate. I don't think we could wash our hands of guilt if all we did was to pray for the man's conversion or stand on the corner with a sign saying "Don't kill that Child".

But that is what we have been doing with these abortion mills. We know that there is mass murder of innocent children going on there everyday, but the only legitimate response we seem to have is to pray for the abortionist's repentance and to stand outside with signs saying "Don't kill that child".

If we believe that both the killing of a two year old and the killing of a fetus are murder in the same sense, then how can we condemn Roeder?