Will U.S. Jews Stand With Israel - Or Obama?

The Jewish Press ^ | 6/3/'09 | Jonathan Braun

[SJackson]

IHR is a Nazi apologist group.... Attacking the messenger's credibility is a classic leftist tactic. If a wristwatch shows the right time,we can't accept it since it is not a Rolex.

No, it's not a tactic, it's a simple fact. Your historical source, the IHR, appeals to neonazis, Holocaust deniers, and assorted Jewhaters. Be careful, relying on the hate community for historical facts may rot your brain. And in any case has no business on this site. There are plenty of right wing hate sites you can peddle the IHR message on, some leftist sites too.

[wardaddy]

actually many liberal Jews do care about Israel but their anti “perceived” as a Christian candidate vote has trumped the preservation of Israel at the ballot box especially for President.

when Carter seemed sort of pro-Arab and evangelical believe it or not....they dumped Dems temporarily and voted Reagan....last time Jews supported GOP I think

to be so darn clever and bright they sure lack political acumen over and over

i actually thought this last time they would vote more for GOP than lately due to Obama's muzzie bs but they didn't messianic humanism and voting against what they see as Christian conservatism is a heavy siren call to many Jews......I've had very reasonable Jews i know explain it to me about like that...especially about keeping Christian conservatism in check

there is so much irony in this I can't keep up with it

i would not know what to do if more Jews were more like me...probably less political arguments in my personal life

[Romulus]

I would have never taken you for an Americanist.

Not in a categorical sense -- you are absolutely right. But I do believe that citizenship and loyalties are closely linked. There is a question of community, ZC: to which community do you or I or others belong? Once we have decided, integrity requires us to live out that reality in concrete ways. General Lee for example, having decided that he was primarily a Virginian, joined himself to a cause he considered hopeless -- out of integrity with his self-understanding.

Why should they stand with a country founded by heretical puritanical freemasons?

It's an excellent question. Here's another: why should they stand with a country founded by ethnic-cleansing terrorists (oh, wait -- that includes America too)?

I am not trying to bait you, ZC; indeed, even though we frequently disagree, I have a lot of respect for you. It's because of this respect that I toss out serious, principled questions:

1. Does USA=Obama, as the thread title all but insists? Are we conceding the notion that the American polity is now personal, invested in the Leader, whoever he may be? Are we now officially a country of men and not of laws?

2. Should ethnicity trump other aspects of community? If we're to say yes, can non-Jewish Americans regard their Jewish neighbors as equally committed to the communities of which they're nominally citizens? Is this good for the community at large? Is this good for Jews? What does citizenship mean to Jews?

The ugly subtext to the title of this thread is that Jews belong no place but their own country and elsewhere are not to be viewed as loyal. Do we really want to go there?

[Westbrook]

> If the Jews don’t support Israel, why should we?

Read your Bible.

And if you don’t believe that, then just think of Israel as the canary in the coal mine. Israel is the ONLY friend we have in the Middle East.

[Zionist Conspirator]

there is so much irony in this I can't keep up with it

I quite agree. Keep on fighting the good fight!

[AmericanVictory]

Bump!

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thanks Romulus. Believe it or not, I respect you because, however mistaken in your beliefs you are (from my perspective), you sincerely hold them for the sake of Heaven.

Ethnic cleansing terrorists? Sounds like Joshua at Jericho!

I am not Jewish. But I believe there is One loyalty for every being in existence, and that is to the True G-d. This trumps community, country, family, ethnicity--everything. This is one reason I get so flustered when people argue for chr*stianity based on American history rather than the actual claims of chr*stianity itself (as I said, it's just another way of sayng "deze are de wayz of our pipplez"). When searching for the Universal Truth, the religious opinions of the founders of the United States of America are a very minor bit of evidence.

The thing is that (again, from my own perspective) G-d has chosen to communicate with and teach the world not via an abstract religious philosophy or a universal organization but via an ethnic group--so much so that membership in this ethnic group (as laid out in Divine Law) is not based on beliefs but on who one's mother was, so that if one was born to a Jewish mother, one is Jewish and bound by all the Halakhah of the Torah, whether one realizes it or not. So far as I know, a Jewish communist/fascist/moslem/chr*stian/secular humanist is still Jewish according to Halakhah with all that that implies. Everyone else is born a Noachide and bound by the Noachide law with all that that implies.

Of course, non-Jews may convert Halakhically to Judaism in which case they're full Jews whose mother and father are Sarah and Abraham.

If on the unlikely chance you are one of those handful of Catholics who accept that Genesis 1-11 is actual history rather than didactic mythology, I'd be happy to have you on my side in some of the battles on that topic.

[Jewbacca]

See, I don’t deem the Temple superseced.

Hence, “a temple.”

[Jewbacca]

Sarah Barajewda Eshet Chayil". Eshet Chayil means a "Woman of Valor" in Hebrew and it is the title of a peom written by King Solomon in the book of Proverbs.

[Zionist Conspirator]

See, I don’t deem the Temple superseced.

Hence, “a temple.”

I know. I'm sorry if my post was worded so poorly that it implied that you did.

[Jewbacca]

[Ann Archy]

This is easy. They will support Obama and then when Israel is divided or destroyed, they will blame the POPE for not doing enough.

[Jewbacca]

My tagline is a paraphrase of Israel’s response to Obama/Hillary Clinton’s demand that they abandon East Jerusalem’s settlements. Makes me proud to have voted for Bibi.

“Israeli Government Press Director Daniel Seamen reacted to this Obama administration statement by saying: “I have to admire the residents of Iroquois territory for assuming that they have a right to determine where Jews should live in Jerusalem.””

http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/05/29/top_stories/doc4a1f3b3710e19186990802.txt

[GOPsterinMA]

That’s an interesting theory. It does sound plausible though - I wouldn’t rule it out!

[rmlew]

Attacking the messenger's credibility is a classic leftist tactic. If a wristwatch shows the right time,we can't accept it since it is not a Rolex.

1. We are dealing with Holocaust deniers in IHR. They don't care about facts.
2. I showed a lie in their list. Vladimir Illych Ulyanov (Lenin) was not Jewish.
3. I the showed how the list is misleading since communists are antisemites. In fact it goes farther since the Soviets persecuted Jews.

[SJackson]

No, I consider Mark Weber and the IHR vehicles for hate, which is why they've been banned here for years.

That an IHR advocate accuses me of obsessive zealotry and blind self-righteousness doesn't surprise me a bit.

And of couse there were many Jews amongst the early Communists, not surprising given their treatment under the Czar. That's information available in numerous places, yet you choose a Holocaust denial site, the IHR, as your reputable source. Speaks volumes about your credibility.