Posted on 06/03/2009 11:13:53 AM PDT by lewisglad
In a commentary today, Creighton theologian R.R. Reno parses the justifications for killing an abortion doctor like George Tiller, and finds that alleged murderer Scott Roeder came up short–though barely. Reno says that “The blanket condemnation [by Catholics bishops] of ‘violence’ seems unhelpfully expansive” and so he wants to explain that the reasons Tiller’s killer was wrong “are not as simple as they seem.”
Reno says that under Christian thinking, such an action would have to satisfy three conditions: It would target the guilty, not the innocent; it would have to be necessary (principally to protect others); and it would have to be an act of self-defense that does not “violate the principle of legitimate authority” by being premeditated and calculated violence, as Tiller’s killing was. Reno says the suspect got two out of three:
The emphasis on “unlawful use of violence,” the evocation of “vigilantism,” and the description of Tiller’s killer as a “vigilante killer” are all exactly right. We are all sinners, but it is painfully obvious that Dr. George Tiller acted in wanton disregard for the sanctity of life. Killing him did not violate the principle of innocence. Moreover, he gave no evidence of stopping. As a result, perhaps something like the principle of necessity can be satisfied. But it is certainly obvious that his killer was acting as the law unto himself. He arrogated to himself the roles of jury, judge, and executioner. He violated the principle of legitimate authority.
That strikes me as far too close to justification, as others would argue that unjust laws shouldn’t stop us. With their redesigned site, the First Things blog now allows comments, and the first commenter on Reno’s thread pressed him to go further, asking how Reno’s argument would apply to Bonhoeffer or the Nazi resistance. Good question.
(Excerpt) Read more at commonwealmagazine.org ...
You act as if you don't think I know how to be nice!
P-Marlowe: “There have been no late term abortions in Kansas since 5/31/09. Who are you going to thank for that?
Bruce: This isn't just about that one (good) result. It's about the fact that this assassination, as you're want to call it P-Marlowe, will not help reduce the mass of abortions in this nation. What now? And how then does this help the pro-life cause generally - other than in that one specific issue.
Setting aside the moral issues (which we can't really do - can we?), how does this help strategically to reduce the masses of abortions?
Much more important than this red herring of Roeder are the recent advances in those that identify themselves as pro-life vs. pro-choice - for the first time higher pro-life (51%) then pro-choice, since 1995. And this result at a time when the pro-aborts are in charge of ‘govuhnmen’ in this country. How much higher would that number be if the question were pro-life or pro-abortion?
Now, how does Roeder’s act support that winning of hearts and minds and the ultimate changing of laws and reduction of the mass of abortions?
IMHO, it does not. And you could certainly make the case that it damages this ultimately important cause. Roeder has distracted us from advancing along many fronts (for the time being) - I think we need to drop Roeder as some kind of ‘rally cry’ and get back to the truth as our rally cry - which we have on our side!! That does not mean we cannot/won't defend ourselves against the unfair characterizations of the pro-life movement in the enemedia. Other than to pray for Roeder, the pro-life movement doesn't owe anything to him.
What Tiller was doing was against the laws of the State of Kansas.
The people of Kansas voted and passed a law which prohibited late term abortions except where there was a :grave threat to the physical health of the mother." That would basically prohibit nearly all late term abortions. But it didn't slow down Tiller's abortion mill at all.
Changing the hearts of the Kansas citizens and passing the laws didn't stop the killing.
Did it?
There have been no late term abortions in Kansas since 5/31/09.
Who are you going to thank for that?
Bruce: We have laws for reasons - to give meaning and definition to the social contract among us.
P-M: “Changing the hearts of the Kansas citizens and passing the laws didn’t stop the killing. Did it?”
Bruce: Are you saying the laws are meaningless when it comes to abortion?
Are you saying we shouldn’t rather advocate for laws to be enforced - when they’re not?
P-Marlowe, are we to assume that you advocate anarchy in the abortion arena, as preferred to forcefully pushing legally, politically, morally and spiritually for just laws, and for those laws to be enforced?
“P-Marlowe, are we to assume that you advocate anarchy in the abortion arena, as preferred to forcefully pushing legally, politically, morally and spiritually for just laws, and for those laws to be enforced?”
Or just where do you draw that anarchy could be more effective line - at the (arbitrary) beginning of the 3rd trimester?
Very sticky situation. Even while not condoning murder it’s clear many people are unable to be troubled by this man’s death given what he got rich doing.
That’s the position I’m in.
The laws are meaningless in the abortion arena as they are not enforced.
SB, are you saying that people haven't been advocating for them to be enforced?
Bruce, why do you keep playing the devil's advocate?
I’m trying to figure out where people who are saying things like, ‘I don’t support killing abortionists, but I’m glad Tiller’s gone’ really stand on the implications of what they’re saying. Or don’t you think there are implications to such comments?
+++++++++++++
Metmom, I’m not sure if you personally have said anything like that - although there is definitely a side to this debate that is saying something just like that.
I’ve been making this exact same argument, based on just war theory, for the past several days! Very cool to see a well-respected scholar and expert confirms my analysis!
No.
And yes, I would say that whereas enforcement of the Supreme Court decision to allow abortion has been consistent - enforcement of laws to control abortion has been spotty at best.
That is a usurpation of power.
And although the public is notoriously complacent, eventually it will say "enough."
I sincerely hope so.
I pray that one or more of the babies who were scheduled for execution on 6/1/09 will grow up to lead America back towards God.
I hope and pray that the next Jonathan Edwards was spared the knife and will one day be the catalyst for another true Great Awakening. God knows we need it.
Tiller's worshipers are today praising the fact that heaven will be a better place because George Tiller is now there.
The silence of the Pro-life movement leaders (whoever they are) to that blasphemy is deafening.
For one thing, to think that anyone could make heaven a better place is evidence that the person making the claim elevates that person above God. There is only One Great Commandment:
This is the first and great commandment. – Matthew 22:37-38
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. - Matthew 5:21-22
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. - Matthew 18:6
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
I stopped reading after that statement. My wife was reading it out loud and apparently that was not the most blasphemous statement made at the funeral. The funeral service basically mocked God and made a hero out of perhaps the worst serial murderer in the history of the United States.
God called him to stand before him on 5/31/09. I sincerely doubt that heaven will be blessed by his presence. He will stand before God. I do not believe that he will say to George Tiller, "Well done, good and faithful servant." I do believe however that after a few centuries basking in the coal fires of hell, he will be "well done". But the flames will NEVER stop. I guess I should feel sorry for him. Maybe later. Not now.
There are not many people I will not feel sorry for when they die and find themselves in hell.
Tiller is one.
If someone had been caught dismembering 60,000 two year olds for hire, I suspect that even many of the most hard core anti-death penalty crowd would have second thoughts.
But to paint him as a martyr like they have makes me wonder if we’ve gotten past the *as it was in the days of Noah* stage.
Maranatha, Jesus!!! Is right.....
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