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Opinion: The sword belongs in its sheath. Killing of George Tiller a ‘Malchus Moment’
Catholic Online ^ | 6/1/09 | Deacon Keith Fournier

Posted on 06/01/2009 6:00:53 AM PDT by tcg

All who know the objective truth about the dignity and value of every human life, from conception to natural death and at every moment in between, should decry this horrible act of violence. It must be unqualifiedly rejected and condemned within the Pro-Life community because of our unwavering conviction that every life, at every age and stage, has dignity and must be respected, protected and honored. This bedrock conviction should inform a “whole life/pro-life” ethic in those who gather under the banner of being Pro-Life.

A moral analysis tells us that the killing of a defenseless George Tiller is similar to the killing of every defenseless child in the womb who dies due to procured abortion. Both acts of killing are evil. Both must be completely rejected. Both should be decried by every person who is Pro-life.

We reject intentional abortion because every procured abortion is the killing of a member of our human family. The dignity of that little human person in the first home of the whole human race cries out for changing the unjust approach to giving protected status to intentional abortion in America. However, this dignity is present in all human persons, even those with whom we disagree and those whose actions we decry.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; choice; georgetiller; prolife; tiller
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To: soccermom

“Killing to defend property is never justified in my opinion.”

That sentence is loaded with bad logic, accompanied with deficient/insufficient American history.

Horse thieves were hung because loss a horse could cause the death or impoverishment of the horse owner.

Consider what happens when a car is stolen. If the owner can’t afford insurance, he is afoot. Loss of job follows rapidly, followed with homelessness.

All of the above because we forgot that the Founders knew - “When property is not considered semi-sacred, horrid mischief will ensure”.

May I suggest rereading writings of Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Adams (both of them), etc.?


181 posted on 06/01/2009 8:46:21 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: TomOnTheRun
"You seem to be making an argument that there are extra-ordinary measures which can dismiss our responsibility to accept the rule of law and work within it."

I'm doing no such thing. I have repeatedly stated that I do NOT condone vigilantism. I am merely taking issue with the disingenuous notion that reasonable legal measures weren't exhausted and that is is somehow a failure in representative democracy that allowed Tiller to practice. It wasn't. The pro-life side did all the right things to work within the law and accomplished what they needed to. The failure is in the corruption of those charged to enforce the law. Pro lifers did their part through legal means. Tiller was allowed to violate the law with help of a corrupt Gov and AG. I can understand how the vigilante lost patience when Tiller was allowed to violate the law with impunity.

" I’m just trying to find out what those boundaries are in general. For example: Does having to elect two new officials always count or does the power of the office have something to do with it? (e.g. It’s an extraordinary measure to have to remove a Governor but not a dogcatcher. That sort of thing.)" Again, there is no general rule. We're discussing a specific case. Since a dogcatcher has no impact on whether or not a law is enforced, I don't see what your point is. It is EXTRAORDINARY to have to demand that a governor allow the laws to be enforced, rather than thwart them for a political donor. (And this is coming from someone who lives in ILLINOIS!)

"I’m curious as to whether you believe individuals, in general, should get to decide when extraordinary measures justify abandoning the rule of law or if there are specific and objective guidelines or boundaries we must follow. Do I just get to wake up one day and say “This is intolerable!” and start shooting? If not, why not?" I don't think anyone is ever legally justified in vigilante killing. Do I have sympathy for people who do so in certain cases, even if I believe they have to pay for their crimes? You bet! I would have sympathy if someone in Ron Goldman's family shot OJ. In the case of Tiller's killer, yes, there is a threshold at which I have sympathy for his killer and, when Tiller is allowed to literally get away with murder --not just based on the pro-life characterization but according to the LAW -- I have sympathy for the man who is willing to enforce the law , when the AG and governor won't.

"To clarify the last question - Lets say that the Tiller killer had instead targeted the governor and the prosecutor for death. Would that have required more or less of an extraordinary measure to kill them instead? If not, why not? If so, why so?" The AG and the prosecutor did not, to my knowledge, murder viable babies in violation of the law. I don't understand your hypothetical question. Why would Tiller's killer want to kill them? Would I have sympathy for the Goldman family if the killed Johnny Cochran instead of OJ? No.
182 posted on 06/01/2009 8:46:36 AM PDT by soccermom
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To: TomOnTheRun

Private contracts are so 2008, just ask the car company bondholders. The rule of law is unlikely to last till 2010. As for what will happen, I am afraid that the points on my home page are rapidly becoming currently relevant.


183 posted on 06/01/2009 8:46:47 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: ketsu
Having a gun may protect you from rural po-pos, it won't do you any good against a UAV with a hellfire. Watch some Iraqi insurgent videos and think about how that would work against *you*.

LOL, do you really think that's how things are going to play out?

get real.

184 posted on 06/01/2009 8:48:05 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: Westbrook
Nothing could have advanced the pro-abortionist cause more, at such a delicate time when popular opinion was JUST beginning to turn against abortionism, than a “clinic” bombing or an abortionist’s murder.

I saw that sentiment repeated yesterday on the live threads. If that is indeed the case - that the pro-life cause gets a huge setback because one wicked man killed a more wicked man; if that is the case and it plays out like that, well, it's all over anyway. If that many of the sheeple are that vacuous, there is absolutely no hope of saving even a small vestige of the Republic.

185 posted on 06/01/2009 8:48:42 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Private First Class - 1/16/09 - Parris Island, SC)
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To: GladesGuru

I am well aware that horse thieves were hung. Just because there was an historical precedent, doesn’t make it right. In my opinion, there is no moral justification to kill over property. Human life is more sacred than property....period!


186 posted on 06/01/2009 8:49:19 AM PDT by soccermom
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To: soccermom

I generally agree about ad hominium arguments, but occasionally referring to some ‘crat as a “goober’ in a gooberment agency does ad a bit of humor to a paragraph.


187 posted on 06/01/2009 8:49:21 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: GladesGuru
I am guessing, but there is a good chance knarf is referring to more of an “Enemies Foreign & Domestic” situation.

Defense against a modern military is futile, destructive to the entire neighborhood, etc.

What biologists call “selective population reduction” is another thing.

Personally, I think America will manage this war between collectivists and American individualists in a not violent manner.

Never to be forgotten is Margaret Thatcher’s famous “The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money”.

All socialists eventually founder on that rock. Obama will be no different.

Obama is far less interested in money than he is in social engineering. Obama (or his backers depending on what you believe) are more interested in *building* cultural institutions than buying them. Acorn etc... are a big part of that.
188 posted on 06/01/2009 8:50:10 AM PDT by ketsu (ItÂ’s not a campaign. ItÂ’s a taxpayer-funded farewell tour.)
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To: bdeaner
War is hell. Fight to win, or surrender.


189 posted on 06/01/2009 8:53:55 AM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: soccermom
When you resort to calling people “goobers” you expose yourself.

Indeed.

190 posted on 06/01/2009 8:54:49 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: Trailerpark Badass
LOL, do you really think that's how things are going to play out?

get real.

Just wait
191 posted on 06/01/2009 8:57:47 AM PDT by ketsu (ItÂ’s not a campaign. ItÂ’s a taxpayer-funded farewell tour.)
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To: TomOnTheRun
but some protestors at abortion clinics were.

Really?

I am not aware of any abortion protester killing anyone, at least not while in that guise.

Can you provide a citation?

192 posted on 06/01/2009 8:58:55 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: DTogo
War is hell. Fight to win, or surrender.

This is not really an ethical argument for war. It's just a battle cry. I don't see your point. If you have an alternative ethic for war, other than the Just War Argument, please feel free to articulate it. On some level, even implicitly, you must have some ethical basis for saying when war is and is not justified.
193 posted on 06/01/2009 8:59:56 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: soccermom

I do believe you are arguing for something here but I’m not sure what. I’ll try to explain my confusion.

When I say that non-violent legal remedies were available you respond that it’s a “disingenuous notion that reasonable legal measures weren’t exhausted”

I look at the situation and see that a governor could have been removed from office. New legislation could have been passed. Elections could have been won instead of lost. These are all legal means - they have NOT been exhausted - and your response to that is that these are “extraordinary measures”.

OK - let’s say that it’s extraordinary that a governor should have to be removed from office. So what. To my view that doesn’t make that removal less of a legal remedy. What does calling it an extraordinary measure change? What difference does it make? Why bring it up at all if it isn’t meant to be something that changes the game? What are you attempting to argue and accomplish by suggesting that these are “extraordinary measures”.

And BTW - I don’t think removing a governor is extraordinary. It’s very ordinary - literally. There is an order to it. It’s in state constitutions about how to do it. Common and ordinary are not the same.


194 posted on 06/01/2009 9:03:54 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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To: Trailerpark Badass

You’re kidding right?

Let’s use the Tiller killer as an example.

He was a member of Operation Rescue and had their number on a post-it on the dash of his car. He has probably donated money to them (we’ll see) but it has already been shown that he was a member of OR. Was this an officially approved OR action? Of course not - they have more sense than that. Was he an abortion protestor? Good luck finding a jury of people that won’t believe that he was an abortion protestor whether or not he was wearing that hat at the moment he pulled a trigger.

I suppose you could argue he wasn’t at a protest or waving a picket sign at the moment of the murder and therefor he wasn’t a protestor but that strains common usage of the English language quite a bit.

Most people will say “an abortion protestor killed an abortion doctor” (or something like that) and know what is meant.


195 posted on 06/01/2009 9:12:38 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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To: bdeaner
All interesting points.

I can only comment at this time regarding society.

(and I will personify .. ) Am I not a member of society, and as such have rights to protect the sociol structure I am a part?

I'm no lawyer, but I can see this to be larger than the OJ trial .. with more importance top the outcome.

196 posted on 06/01/2009 9:17:00 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: bdeaner

I think the logic you are trying to use here limps a bit - but it’s far from being terrible. =)

I encourage you to strengthen the argument and make it more self-sufficient - it shouldn’t depend so much on Just War theories. I believe you are thinking about this the right way but this is a fully independent issue. It can stand on its own.

I would also strongly suggest you consider intentions are weighed and what the practical effects of these sorts of arguments might be if carried out in the real world.


197 posted on 06/01/2009 9:17:31 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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To: don-o

> if that is the case and it plays out like that, well,
> it’s all over anyway. If that many of the sheeple are
> that vacuous, there is absolutely no hope of saving even
> a small vestige of the Republic.

Correct.

As Exhibit A, I present President Obama.


198 posted on 06/01/2009 9:18:01 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: ketsu

Historically speaking, Lenin provoked violent reactions on the part of the Russian farmers as a means of drawing their weapons out. Lenin used the Red Army as the tool to eliminate all firearms in the Soviet Union. A farmer could shoot the local party official, but he couldn’t fight an army. I believe Obama is deliberately upping the ante in order to disarm the public. Read The Black Book of Communism.


199 posted on 06/01/2009 9:42:19 AM PDT by Judges Gone Wild (Love means never shooting your own wounded, We love you, Carrie! (I think.))
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To: TomOnTheRun
The state helped create an environment in which this man would kill?

Absolutley; had the state done its job, then the issue of Tiller murdering babies would not have been an issue. He would have already been stopped, and/or punished. That doesn't release Tiller's killer from his responsibility, though. He should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

You can not turn your back on the fact that the state has a responsibility to protect those among society that can not protect themselves. There is just too much in foundational material of this country (both religious and secular) to think otherwise. The state has abdicated that position, because of liberal philosophy.

200 posted on 06/01/2009 9:44:33 AM PDT by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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