ANOTHER UNINFORMED FAIRTAX CRITIC

Nelz Nuze ^ | May 6, 2009 | Neal Boortz

[Turret Gunner A20]

... and this time it's none other than Dave Ramsey. The FairTax is a bold proposal. It is only natural that people are going to try to criticize it. Is it too much to ask for these people to do at least a modicum of research so that they at least appear to know what they're talking about?

This time the culprit is Dave Ramsey. I like the guy, and I like his approach. His sermons on living debt free are right on, and no doubt he's helped millions of people to improve their financial. OK .. mighty fine. But now he's taken it upon himself to opine that the FairTax simply isn't, in his words, "fair."

Let's take this quote from Ramsey's article: "People would only pay taxes on items they buy, except for food, basic clothing and other kinds of necessities." Most of the FairTax supporters know that this is just flat-out wrong. The explanation is incomplete.

If Ramsey really was informed on the FairTax he would know that you pay taxes only on items that you buy at the retail level, and that food, basic clothing and other kinds of necessities are included. Ramsey would also know about the prebate. He would know that every household in this country --- that is, every legal household --- would get a credit or check from the Treasury Department every single month equal to the FairTax they would be expected to pay on the basic necessities of life during the following month. This FairTax prebate is so essential to the FairTax plan that to ignore it, or to be unaware of it entirely, is worse than careless.

Ramsey also writes of the FairTax "This means it's more of a burden on poor people, because they would pay a higher percentage of their overall income."

Sorry, wrong. The poor, poor pitiful poor would pay virtually nothing - zero percent of their income - to the federal government. [ALERT! Brilliant thought follows!] To pay any taxes at all to the feds the poor would have to spend above the poverty level. If they're doing that ... they're not poor. Pretty easy, isn't it?

I wonder why Dave Ramsey doesn't get it? Is there a chance he just shot from the hip here without doing any real research? The FairTax deserves better than this flippant, uninformed treatment.

Dave Ramsey could be a good proponent of the FairTax. He's very bright, and he would recognize the beauty of this plan if he just would take the time to actually study it. Knowing what you're talking about .... Is that too much to ask?

Weird, this audio clip on YouTube seems to show Ramsey supporting the FairTax. Huh. Maybe he's lost changed his mind since that was recorded.

[Recovering Ex-hippie]

actually,this raises a point on ‘gay marriages”...the whole hoopala over gay marriages would end tomorrow if “singles’ could bequeath their Soc Sec benefits and insurance to another chosen adult; the “marriage tax benefits “ were eliminated and the end of life decisions could be given to another chosen adult.

as a single person, I would welcome such tax changes to make the tax situation more fair for ALL singles....another reason for the Fair Tax.

[CSM]

More good points. Thanks.

[Bigun]

I may not know everything there is to know about the so called fair tax, but if somebody who loves raising taxes as much as the huckster likes it I know I am against it.

Looks like you don't know much about Huckabee's record on taxes either.

According to the Tax Foundation, the state and local tax burden on the average Arkansan increased from 10.1 per cent to 11.3 per cent under Huckabee in 11 years.

[Bigun]

Naysayers railing against the FairTax become, ipso facto, defenders of the INCOME TAX system. Prof. Larry Kotlikoff believes that the current tax system IS bringing the country to nothing less than an "economic meltdown" by virtue of the invisibility of actual taxes paid. If Americans do not understand the true cost of their government, they're unlikely to hold Congress accountable - thus the enabling mechanism to continued profligate spending.

Even with the foregoing notwithstanding, do FairTax naysayers really believe:

• Workers love having their pay confiscated, hourly, through gov't withholding and don't mind getting their money back by involuntary servitude - to the tune of 50 hours/year (on average) - preparing an annual tax return?

• That certifying the number of persons in your family (annually, and, ancillarily, upon change in household) is an abrogation of our freedom - more intrusive and complex than filing a tax return every year subject to threats and intimidation by theIRS.

• It's better to have theIRS fishing through citizens' income transactions (complete with audits, interest, penalties, and threats against individuals, families, businesses as well as confiscation of their homes, property, and bank accounts) rather than - Gawd forbid - issuing a gov't check to an individual (while pretending that Social Security payments disbursement logistics really can't work for "prebates")?

• That an monthly advance tax rebate is the same thing as "being on the dole" ? (Only lobbyists, special interests, and business deserve "handouts" ? - the politician gets a payoff from a lobbyist, the lobbyist gets a payoff from its client, and the citizen gets higher taxes and/or prices that pay for it all.)

• "Hidden taxes" in higher prices are fine because they're not "taxes," per se? (Hey, forget that families are really paying business's costs for complying with a business income tax code - staff, consultants, submittals, etc.)

• It's far better to have a gargantuan tax collection "service" in Washington, than to have 50 decentralized, smaller, leaner state collection agencies collecting taxes from fewer sources?

• That the work by notable economists (paid tens of millions of $'s by Americans for Fair Taxation) doesn't carry weight because it was paid for by private funds instead of some gov't / quasi-gov't enterprise?

• That FairTax's backing by many economists doesn't carry any weight because (the Brookings') Wm Gale's testimony before the President's Commission on Tax Reform is - somehow - above all that?!

(NOTE: The Commission/Gale made up their own "consumption tax" requirements, as if that constituted a legitimate rebuke of the FairTax plan. Dr. Kotlikoff has requested - but never received - Gale's technical "modus operandi" which would definitively explain just how Gale's conclusions can be reconciled with Kotlikoff's well-documented technical work.

Let us work, together, to end the enslavement of the Tax Code and to restore Liberty to America's working families.

America's working families are paid because the companies they work for sell goods and services. Let's pay for government the way America's families are paid - when something is sold.

Naysayers railing against the FairTax become, ipso facto, defenders of the INCOME TAX system. Prof. Larry Kotlikoff believes that the current tax system IS bringing the country to nothing less than an "economic meltdown" by virtue of the invisibility of actual taxes paid. If Americans do not understand the true cost of their government, they're unlikely to hold Congress accountable - thus the enabling mechanism to continued profligate spending.

Even with the foregoing notwithstanding, do FairTax naysayers really believe:

• Workers love having their pay confiscated, hourly, through gov't withholding and don't mind getting their money back by involuntary servitude - to the tune of 50 hours/year (on average) - preparing an annual tax return?

• That certifying the number of persons in your family (annually, and, ancillarily, upon change in household) is an abrogation of our freedom - more intrusive and complex than filing a tax return every year subject to threats and intimidation by theIRS.

• It's better to have theIRS fishing through citizens' income transactions (complete with audits, interest, penalties, and threats against individuals, families, businesses as well as confiscation of their homes, property, and bank accounts) rather than - Gawd forbid - issuing a gov't check to an individual (while pretending that Social Security payments disbursement logistics really can't work for "prebates")?

• That an monthly advance tax rebate is the same thing as "being on the dole" ? (Only lobbyists, special interests, and business deserve "handouts" ? - the politician gets a payoff from a lobbyist, the lobbyist gets a payoff from its client, and the citizen gets higher taxes and/or prices that pay for it all.)

• "Hidden taxes" in higher prices are fine because they're not "taxes," per se? (Hey, forget that families are really paying business's costs for complying with a business income tax code - staff, consultants, submittals, etc.)

• It's far better to have a gargantuan tax collection "service" in Washington, than to have 50 decentralized, smaller, leaner state collection agencies collecting taxes from fewer sources?

• That the work by notable economists (paid tens of millions of $'s by Americans for Fair Taxation) doesn't carry weight because it was paid for by private funds instead of some gov't / quasi-gov't enterprise?

• That FairTax's backing by many economists doesn't carry any weight because (the Brookings') Wm Gale's testimony before the President's Commission on Tax Reform is - somehow - above all that?!

(NOTE: The Commission/Gale made up their own "consumption tax" requirements, as if that constituted a legitimate rebuke of the FairTax plan. Dr. Kotlikoff has requested - but never received - Gale's technical "modus operandi" which would definitively explain just how Gale's conclusions can be reconciled with Kotlikoff's well-documented technical work.

Let us work, together, to end the enslavement of the Tax Code and to restore Liberty to America's working families.

America's working families are paid because the companies they work for sell goods and services. Let's pay for government the way America's families are paid - when something is sold.

[Filo]

Naysayers railing against the FairTax become, ipso facto, defenders of the INCOME TAX system.

Incorrect.

It's not nearly an either-or proposition and your assertion represents a false conundrum.

The rest of your red herrings and straw men aren't worth responding to - not because they aren't good questions but because they are not germane to the glaring flaws in the FairTax.

[xcamel]

You forgot “incessantly demeaning, derogatory, insulting, defamatory and personally offensive remarks tendered in defense of a fallacy”

[taxcontrol]

We HAVE discussed, gone round and round, point and counter point and no one changed their positions. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results and all....

[John D]

According to the Tax Foundation, the state and local tax burden on the average Arkansan increased from 10.1 per cent to 11.3 per cent under Huckabee in 11 years.

That was the increase ABOVE and beyond the increases of the democrats who preceded him.

[Bigun]

Let's here your proposal.

Do you have a bill before congress that will get it done?

Does it retain the IRS?

Is it an income tax in any form?

[Bigun]

That was the increase ABOVE and beyond the increases of the democrats who preceded him.

And most of it forced by the courts.

[Turret Gunner A20]

We HAVE discussed, gone round and round, point and counter point and no one changed their positions. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results and all....

Then why keep on wasting that bandwidth you're so concerned about -- and why keep boring people with your same old same old?

Get a life. as the saying goes.

[Turret Gunner A20]

... “incessantly demeaning, derogatory, insulting, defamatory and personally offensive remarks tendered in defense of a fallacy”

Good boy. Excellent self-appraisl. They say that confession is good for the soul. Keep it up.

[taxcontrol]

Well the reason I posted was to address an audience OTHER THAN those who have made up their minds on the issue. I have not intention of wasting either their time or Freerepublic bandwidth trying to argue with with people.

My comments were designed to inform others that there are alternatives to the “Fair Tax” and if they were so motivated, could then look up for themselves the different tax collection systems available. If on the other hand, they would not so inclined, my comments would not be overbearing or intrusive.

If you wish to argue with someone - fine. It's just not going to be me because we have done that before.

[Turret Gunner A20]

All that matters is the flamethrower attitude that NB came out with toward Dave without having all the facts... which is all too typical of fairtaxers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Look who's talking about somebody not having all the facts. Hell, you never had a fact in your entire miserable life.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Turret Gunner A20]

Well, if you must continue lying, I guess tht’s up to you. Have fun.

[Filo]

Let's here your proposal.

Do you have a bill before congress that will get it done?

Does it retain the IRS?

Is it an income tax in any form?

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I've previously proposed either a flat tax (something on the order of 8-9%) with everyone paying and with a mandated biannual reduction as socialist programs (medicare, medicaid, welfare, social security) are phased out.

I would also support the consumption tax/FairTax if the rate were substantially reduced, if the prebate were eliminated entirely and if there was a credit for the double-taxation on savings. Again, I would support a somewhat higher initial rate with gradual, mandatory reductions as unconstitutional programs are phased out.

Both proposals are more workable than the current abomination but no, none are before Congress yet. Nobody in Washington has the stones to do what needs to be done.

[Turret Gunner A20]

pi$$ off, moron.

OH, MY GOODNESS!!!! A potty-mouthed name-caller.

Do you talk to your Mommy with that potty mouth??? FOR SHAME!!!!

And all this time I thought you were only an ignornt liar and were pure and above all that sort of thing.

My mistake.

[Hostage]

Huckster was a flat taxer before he understood that the FairTax would protect Churches from being attacked by the IRS over political speech.

There are far more refined, intelligent and patriotic Americans behind the FairTax than Mike Huckabee. He only served to bring it to the national stage but it was there long before he embraced it.

HR 25 is a truly inspired piece of legislation. To condemn it because one politician you don’t like is for it, is to condemn the founding of the United States because some prominent colonialist was opposed to violence against the Crown.

My advice is that if you want to ‘get it’, to under stand the slam-dunk superiority of the FairTax tax reform over any other existing or possible, is to set aside two hours every night for a month and commit to its study. Don’t draw any conclusions until you understand it very well because there is a concerted organized campaign to bash it and spread disinformation about it.

Start your study here:

http://www.fairtax.org

Ask me questions if you need. I will give you facts, history and context.

[Bigun]

I've previously proposed either a flat tax (something on the order of 8-9%) with everyone paying...

If you are talking about an income tax here count me out! The income tax has GOT to go! It taxes the wrong end of the spectrum and is too easily manipulated to promote class warfare among other things!

I would also support the consumption tax/FairTax if the rate were substantially reduced, if the prebate were eliminated entirely and if there was a credit for the double-taxation on savings. Again, I would support a somewhat higher initial rate with gradual, mandatory reductions as unconstitutional programs are phased out.

Seems as though you want to do it all in one feld swoop. It ain't going to happen that way my friend! It took a LONG time for us to get were we are and it's going to take some time to get us back where we belong and the FairTax proposal is the best idea out there to get us started down that road!

...none are before Congress yet.

That's what I thought!

Nobody in Washington has the stones to do what needs to be done.

What's holding YOU back from running! If ever there was a time for that it is now given the current mood of the country!