[Tolik]

Taxes & Tyranny Cont'd   [Jonah Goldberg]

From a reader:

Jonah:

This is about taxes as tyranny, and though I likely won't articulate this as well as I could, I think you'll get the point. When folks equate taxes with tyranny or stealing their productive labor or whatever, they seem to me to be missing a fairly important point; namely, what would be the value of their labor if there were no government or the government were not a democracy? You can argue about how much value having a democratic government adds to your labor, but I don't see how you can argue that the level of that value isn't very significant. For example, what do you suppose the difference in wages would be that you would have been paid or would be paid in a totalitarian government as opposed to the amount of wages that you earn right now? I would guess that the difference is pretty significant and that even if you have to pay 25% of your income for the benefit of the democratic government that we live in, it's well worth it.

Me: While I agree with the basic point, I think the reader steals a couple bases here.

Most libertarians — and all conservatives — aren't anarchists. They believe in some minimal form of government to ensure what the reader calls democratic government. I would have no problem whatsoever paying 25% of my income to ensure democratic government, if that is what it cost. The problem is that democratic government doesn't cost anywhere close to that. It is deeply misleading or dishonest for liberals to argue that we need high taxation to pay for the security of our democratic liberty while that taxation goes to paying for things that have nothing to do with those liberties and, in many cases, goes to pay for things that are inimical to liberty.

Taxes are a necessary evil, but they are an evil. Taxes are tyrannical simply because they are not voluntary. The state takes money from individuals whether they like it or not. (If you prefer, we can say that taxes restrict liberty.)

At the same time, poisons are alwas determined in the dosage. Censoring kiddie porn is a restriction of liberty, but it is a necessary one. Censoring political speech is a restriction of liberty and an unnecessary one. I see nothing wrong with making such distinctions.

Update: From a longtime liberal reader:

Government DOES cost "anywhere close to that"

To what part of the pie do you object? Are you really saying, "We should not have Medicare"? Are you saying, "We should not have Social Security"? Are you saying, "When people are laid off, they should not get unemployment benefits"?

Do you think that's what the pissed off teabaggers are saying? 

If so, please just go ahead and say it. Say that government costs way too much because we have Social Security and Medicare and unemployment benefits and we should get rid of those programs.

Me: Umm, no. When I hear the first reader saying that democratic government costs 25%, I hear him saying that a reliable system of democracy (constitutionalism etc) costs that much. It doesn't. Today's government costs that much (actually it costs far, far, far more, which is why we have such deficits) but generic liberty-protecting "democratic government" costs far, far, far less than what we pay for today.

A minarchist state isn't very expensive. A welfare state is.

Now if these two readers mean to say that "democratic governments" means whatever government program people vote for — or decline to vote to get rid of — that is a different argument and they should be more explicit in what they mean. Moreover, simply because people vote for something doesn't mean it isn't or can't be tyrannical. In a pure democracy, a majority could vote for me to be burned at the stake or to make a certain class of people slaves. It'd be democratic government, but I wouldn't want to pay for it — at any price.

04/17 11:37 AM

[Nonstatist]

Stop trying to make sense. Youre all a bunch of fascists , and whats more, you’re racist.

[Tolik]

Nailed It!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.)

I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention.

You are welcome to browse the list of truly exceptional articles I pinged to lately. Updated on April 1, 2009.  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about).

Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

[reaganaut1]

I was disappointed with Goldberg’s reply regarding #2, “taxation with representation”. He should have mentioned that a very “progressive” income tax system where only a small fraction of taxpayers pay more than 50% of the taxes effectively becomes “taxation without represenation”.
There is a reason the Founding Fathers wrote a Constitution which did not permit an income tax (a constitutional amendment was needed to impose it).

[Hardastarboard]

Another really good article by Jonah Goldberg. Jonah - if you lurk here, good job. I read "Liberal Fascism", also a great read.

If I may be the critic here, sometimes Jonah pulled his punches a bit in "Liberal Fascism" when calling liberals out as being anti-freedom and ideologically related to Nazis, possibly because he's so used to being set upon by liberal hyenas that he feels compelled to land glancing blows.

The above critique may also just be my own expression of frustration that liberals have far more coming to them than they've gotten. They've certainly earned whatever ills befall them.

[EdReform]

Ping

[Lorianne]

Great article. Thanks for posting!

[expatpat]

Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude

We are serfs, not slaves.

[WOSG]

“1. All of this tyranny talk is overheated and idiotic.

Well, some of it surely is. But look. According to that reason video I posted below, Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude, because all of your productive labor would be going to the government. You would have no resources of your own to provide for the life you wanted. Instead the government would provide you not with what you want, but what the government decides you need.”

Most serfs did NOT have to work 365 days for their Feudal Lords, nor did the lord’s own or get all of their production.

Likewise, sharecroppers got a portion and had a portion given to the landowner.

Of course, these are landowners, not Govt. What is Govt *providing* to make it worth it to stay?

[mjp]

"I've heard a lot of complaints from liberals".

Sorry liberal commies, but rationality and justice is earning what you get and keeping what you earn, and not being forced to give it away to parasites out pity, guilt, and so called "need".

[SunkenCiv]

NY Times Gives Tax Day Tea Parties the Kiss-off
Boycott The New York Times | April 17, 2009 | Don Feder
Posted on 04/17/2009 10:31:02 AM PDT by AIM Freeper
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2231605/posts

[Marmolade]

bfl

[Billthedrill]

Fascism isn't a libertarian doctrine!

Well, no, it isn't. Nor is it a conservative doctrine. Fascism is a progressive, utopian doctrine that is totalitarian in nature. These days it wears a Green face but it hasn't changed.

[WOSG]

While I think Rick Perry’s secession talk is idiotic and unfortunate (even accounting for Texas’ unique history), I am at a loss as to how any of this stuff smacks of fascism. Even Perry is talking in the context of the federal government doing too much, taking away too much liberty, getting too involved in local communities and interfering too much with the individual.”

Nothing Rick Perry said was wrong, idiotic or unfortunate. You give too much ground to
the hypeventilating Left in saying that. Perry has spoken properly of the need to let Texas run Texas.
He defends state sovereignty and is unafraid to mention the 10th Amendment. He never advocated secession.
When Perry says that Texas can handle Texas better than DC can handle Texas, he states a
simple principle of good Government: Government is best when it is closest to the people.
DC politicians should respect this concept or should be fired.

I was at the Austin, TX, rally where Gov Perry spoke. He contrasted Texas success with DCs bailouts.
He was preceded by 10 speakers with a common theme of “Don’t Mess with
Texas”, pointing out successful conservative Texas Governance compared with what is going on in Washington DC,
They explained why we dont need the path of spending money we dont have on programs we dont need to
help people and corporations who dont deserve it.

Yes, there was a guy in the crowd who shouted “Secede!” behind me a few times,
but this was a boisterous crowd with libertarians, activist conservatives, other groups,
non-political agitated taxpayers, etc. It can be taken about as seriously as the few folks in the same crowd
who want to abolish the Fed etc. (good spinkling of Campaign for Liberty / “Paulistinians” in the crowd).
You also had the “Dont Tread on Me” flag and the flag from Texas Revolution (”Come and Take It”).
I felt it appropriate to bring the Texas flag myself, and it fit right in to the rally’s theme.

There was and is no serious secession talk,
... imho, ‘secession’ is another liberal (MSNBC) baiting tactic, to marginalize via
guilt-by-association/isolation technique.

Rather the serious discussion is over how to assert Texas’ right to run our state
without Federal rules and strings attached to their ‘giveaways’, like they put into the stimulus.
We don’t want or need stimulus handout/bailout money.
In reality, Gov Perry has touted how Texas is a great place to work, and just wants to point out that
Texas can take care of Texas:
http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/11797/

[jimt]

...Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes.

And seeing as the average work year is 260 days, it means 39.6% of your labor is slavery. Let alone the fact that 50% of the people don't pay income taxes. They're going to vote for your 39.6% to increase so they can enjoy goobermint's largesse on your nickel.

[muawiyah]

Let’s retake the government and then lay all the taxes on the Leftwingtards. Should be able to force them to work 363 days a year.

[Army Air Corps]

Bookmark

[Army Air Corps]

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[justiceseeker93]

Ping!!!

Important article by Jonah Goldberg!

[SuziQ]

Bump!