H-1B Curbs Not For Indian IT Companies

http://infotech.indiatimes.com/News/H-1B_curbs_not_for_Indian_IT_cos_Infy/articleshow/4110291.cms ^ | February 11, 2009

[Steelfish]

H-1B curbs not for Indian IT cos: Infy

11 Feb, 2009

NEW DELHI: Software exporter Infosys which has sizeable onsite employee base in the US said the latest amendment to the H-1B visa rules for the

country will not be applicable to it.

"We believe the amendments are restricted to the US companies which receive funding under TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Programme) and is not applicable to companies like us. Having said that we have to wait for the law to be passed.

[ketsu]

I have no problem if true talent is brought in from overseas.....but if it truly is “talent” they should be compensated like an American would be.

The sports world seems to have no problem with compensating foreign talent equal to what an American would make.....no sport would pay, say, Steve Nash less because he was a Canadian...or Yao Ming less because he was Chinese. They are paid based on their talent....not to undercut American players

Exactly. The H1B program was created with admirable goals. Now it's being hideously exploited.

[WheresMyBailout]

Indians working in America are paid an equal, if not higher, wage. If fact, Indians are the richest ethnic group per capita according to the Census.

(I’ll concede that outsourcing though is done at a much cheaper rate, but firms also get a lower quality work product usually.)

Everything comes down to hard work. I firmly believe anybody can make six figures, within a short period of time depending on their background, and anybody can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. However, those that are worried about the competition more so than themselves are doomed for failure.

[UCFRoadWarrior]

Thats true...the H1B is totally exploited. And, most of the H1B’s are used for non-skilled labor (which is against the law...but done anyway).

The H1B is really destructive because, not only Americans are undercut in wages, but, the lower paid Indians are not going to spend as much on housing, retail, and other services....losing money on those things kills local communities

[ketsu]

Indians working in America are paid an equal, if not higher, wage. If fact, Indians are the richest ethnic group per capita according to the Census.

(I’ll concede that outsourcing though is done at a much cheaper rate, but firms also get a lower quality work product usually.)

Everything comes down to hard work. I firmly believe anybody can make six figures, within a short period of time depending on their background, and anybody can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. However, those that are worried about the competition more so than themselves are doomed for failure.

Your thinking is scarily muddled here. As an *ethnic group* Indians make more money per capita. In a specific *field*, IT, H1Bs are payed quite a bit less. In theory the H1B is supposed to work the way you think. In practice the majority of H1B's are indentured labor.

Does that help?

[WheresMyBailout]

You make some fair points, but if we allowed unemployed H1-Bs to stay here, wouldn’t they just put a drain on our system?

[UCFRoadWarrior]

Most H1Bs are paid less than Americans are

As for Indians....most are legal immigrants and US citizens....not H1Bs. Their high per capita income is because many are in the medical and hospitality field....most are in professional type of work and are paid comprable to Americans

Yes, I probably should not willy-nilly refer to H1Bs as all “Indians”...since many H1Bs are from all over the world. But the problem with the H1B is that it is used to undercut Americans....not to bring in real foreign talent

[WheresMyBailout]

I’ll concede I’m not up to speed on the average salaries of each field in IT.

I was always under the impression, at least at the graduate MS level, that, for example, your MS Computer Engineering guy from India would make the same as your MS Computer Engineering guy from the States. Even the BS guys would at least break 50K, from my anecdotal information.

[ketsu]

You make some fair points, but if we allowed unemployed H1-Bs to stay here, wouldn’t they just put a drain on our system?

Why not? If we're going to bring over smart people to work here, they should be able to go on the dole just like everybody else. We can't have our cake and eat it too. H1B's(not superstars) are a lot less attractive when you have to pay them benefits like everyone else.

The minute you take away social services from a group like the H1B's you create a slave class that will necessarily be attractive to employers.

[ketsu]

I’ll concede I’m not up to speed on the average salaries of each field in IT.

I was always under the impression, at least at the graduate MS level, that, for example, your MS Computer Engineering guy from India would make the same as your MS Computer Engineering guy from the States. Even the BS guys would at least break 50K, from my anecdotal information.

H1B's make from $12,500-$20,000 *less* than their similarly skilled American counterparts.

[WheresMyBailout]

I’ll have to do some research on the H1B salary differential, and I guess I’ll concede in part that the H1B program is not truly free market. I think I understand the point that we have foreigners who view coming to America as sort of an in-kind contribution (in actuality it’s an in-kind contribution from the taxpayers, not the firm), and this distorts the labor markets.

Thanks for the relevant information in this discussion. We may have briefly scraped this topic, but it definitely has peaked my interest.

[ketsu]

I’ll have to do some research on the H1B salary differential, and I guess I’ll concede in part that the H1B program is not truly free market. I think I understand the point that we have foreigners who view coming to America as sort of an in-kind contribution (in actuality it’s an in-kind contribution from the taxpayers, not the firm), and this distorts the labor markets.

Could you clarify what you mean by an "in-kind contribution"? I know what an in-kind contribution is, just not in this context.

[JimWayne]

H1B visa holders are supposed to leave the country if they get laid off and cannot find another job within 10 days.

H1B holders who are direct employees make as much as American programmers. The disparity in wages comes from Indians and Russians themselves. There are dozens of placement companies run by Indians and Russians who do the paperwork for visa and bring these programmers into the US as their employees. They are then placed as consultants in major companies that pay these middlemen MORE THAN the salary of a programmer.

Why "MORE THAN?" Because they get paid the consulting rate which is higher than the salary. The middlemen pay a salary of 45-50,000 per year and pocket the rest which is around 75,000 a year. This is how the average salary for H1Bs comes down. As far as companies like Intel or Microsoft are concerned, they're paying the full rate.

[american colleen]

I had this very discussion with my husband last night. Although I am more conservative than he is, we are on opposite sides of the H1-B or outsourcing issue.

He says that it's a free market demand and that companies should be free to hire the cheapest labor that they can, regardless of the quality or affect on the American worker. In theory, I agree with him. You can't legislate who companies can hire (we'd be Dems :-)) but the H1-B/outsourcing fiasco really bothers me as I've seen it up close and personal - and it is all about wages and they work those people to death (and most of them aren't that great at what they do). I believe the majority of H1-B people work for companies like WiPro, Infosys, etc. American companies pay the 'contractor company' an agreed on bid and the contractor company provides the H1-B people. These H1-B's sign on with WiPro or Infosys for a period of time and they are not free to quit and move on if working conditions are awful.

I just don't know what the answer is, but I do know in the world of technology, there are a lot of hard working and smart Americans out of work having been replaced by foreing workers. You can't legislate for 'the greater good' or 'ethical' behaviour though.

[stompk]

“The tech Industry is completely saturated with h1bs though there are lots of totally qualified yet unemployed American engineers ... Including me ... Time for the h1bs to go home”

bears repeating.

[Steelfish]

Agree- Especially if your company requires unique job skills that cannot be found. But the Indians and other Asians come over here- and then for all practical purposes it takes the form of a permanent visa and then they go through the whole sham of the “green cards proces” and before long we have unlimited chain migration. There is a veritable cottage industry of immigration lawyers and they have become a very powerful lobbying group as well

[WheresMyBailout]

I mean that the benefits that h1-b holders get from living in America (better roads, better hospitals, better schools for children etc.) are from the government (taxpayers). However, since the employers are sponsoring the h1-b holders, they are the ones essentially offering these benefits to the employee and they have the ability, via stripping the h1-b holder of his work authorization, to take these benefits away.

I hope I’m being a bit more clear.

[ketsu]

Agree- Especially if your company requires unique job skills that cannot be found. But the Indians and other Asians come over here- and then for all practical purposes it takes the form of a permanent visa and then they go through the whole sham of the “green cards proces” and before long we have unlimited chain migration. There is a veritable cottage industry of immigration lawyers and they have become a very powerful lobbying group as well

I don't give a hoot about "chain migration" if it's by smart people. America needs more smart and civilized folks and, when done right, H1B's are smart and civilized.

[ketsu]

I mean that the benefits that h1-b holders get from living in America (better roads, better hospitals, better schools for children etc.) are from the government (taxpayers). However, since the employers are sponsoring the h1-b holders, they are the ones essentially offering these benefits to the employee and they have the ability, via stripping the h1-b holder of his work authorization, to take these benefits away.

I hope I’m being a bit more clear.

I don't think so. H1B's may enjoy better bennies in the states but that's not the key. The key is wages. Even a $35k a year H1B from a developing country is making 3+ times what he'd be making at home.

[ketsu]

Why "MORE THAN?" Because they get paid the consulting rate which is higher than the salary. The middlemen pay a salary of 45-50,000 per year and pocket the rest which is around 75,000 a year. This is how the average salary for H1Bs comes down. As far as companies like Intel or Microsoft are concerned, they're paying the full rate.

That is nowhere near the full rate. You're ignoring costs other than salary. Once you add bennies and all the other costs for an equivalent employee you're *far* cheaper than the equivalent American. Even direct employees make $13,000 less than the comparable American.

Your argument doesn't work.

[WheresMyBailout]

That’s the notion of the free market then. Labor flows to where capital is (immigration) and capital flows to where labor is (outsourcing).

I wonder if these restrictions on H1Bs actually create more problems then they solve. If there were only say 1000 slots for H1Bs and I’m from India, I’d accept a very low salary in America. If there were an unlimited amount of slots, I’d probably hold out until I got paid the full salary.