Posted on 01/07/2009 12:49:42 PM PST by ml/nj
I previously have posted the Oxford English Dictionary definitions and usage histories for natural-born and native born in some long thread about the question of Obama's Constitutional eligiblity to assume the office of President. But that thread was eventually deleted, and I think these definitions should be available for discussion here.
Lawyers use the OED because it is sometimes the only way to examine what words meant at the time they were used to craft legislation. So here are the entries for these phrases:
Of note to me is that at least some of the usages of native-born and particularly the ones whose dates bracket the drafting of the Constitution suggest that this term has as much to do with whom one is born to as to where one is born. I also note that the entry for natural-born suggests comparison with the one for native-born which seems to have nothing to do with who ones parents are.
Whatever natural-born means, it means something. That everyone would turn their heads and pretend otherwise will not be good for the rule of law in this country.
ML/NJ
I’m not sure what you have checked out but clearly you have no proof that Nobama was born in Hawaii. There is lots of evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii. For example, his grandmother claims she was present in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born.
The most compelling evidence is that Obama has not provided proof of his birth and citizenship status and history. This issue has become huge and Nobama has spent millions of dollars avoiding showing his documentation/proof. The only possible explanation for this is that he has something to hid and the only logical explanation is that he is trying to hide the fact that he was not born in the US. No other explanation fits the known facts.
Interestingly, after all of this controversy, NOBODY has come forth and said that they witnessed or have personal knowledge or they have proof that Nobama was born in Hawaii. This fact alone almost rises to the level of “proof” that he was not born in Hawaii. It is virtually impossible to imagine that if Nobama was born in Hawaii as claimed there is NOBODY who recollects the fact. There is no Doctor who worked at the hospital Nobama claims to have been born in to come forward and say he checked his records of children he birthed in 1961 and Nobama is listed. No Nurse, no Hospital administrator, no Next Door Neighbor who recalls a White girl bringing home a Black baby (something likely to have been noticed in 1961).
While all of Obama’s immediate American relatives are dead he has dozens of Aunts, Uncles, Cousin’s, etc who are still alive. Why have none of these close relatives come forward to state they recall him being born in Hawaii? Where are the photographs of the baby in the hospital? The lack of evidence of his Hawaian birth speaks volumes.
Honest people with nothing to hide do not spend millions of dollars trying to avoid providing evidence of the truth. Nobama has spent millions to avoid having to prove that he is a natural born citizen. The only possible explanation for Nobama’s behavior is that he knows he is not a Natural born Citizen and he is trying to hide this fact.
To Just a Nobody,
You have a poor understanding of the law. “Lack of Standing” and “Frivious” have completely different meanings. Lack of Standing means that the person filing the lawsuit does not have a legal right to file. For example, if someone stole your car I could not file a lawsuit to recover damages for your stolen car. I would lack standing. Frivilous means “Without Merit”. The two terms are completely different.
When a lawsuit is dismissed for lack of standing no judgement is made regarding the merit of the lawsuit. The only judgement made is that the person filing the lawsuit does not have the right to file.
Before you can “Suceed” you need to learn how to spell “secede”.
"You don’t know what you are talking about. Your comment doesn’t relate to anything I said. You just can’t argue the issue on the facts so you have to resort to attacking people. That’s what happens when you have a losing argument." and:"We are interested in the truth aren't we? Whatever it is? We don't get to the truth by ignoring facts we don't like, or misrepresenting them. I'm sure you'll agree. So it's important to acknowledge the facts we can agree on."
"Hint of hypocrisy creeping in yet? You should be aware of it by now..."
There isn't the slightest bit of hypocrisy in those statements. Pointing out someone that engages in personal attacks, and requesting that people acknowledge demonstrable facts, are not hypocritical. I don't know what you are reading in to it.
Knock it off. Stop attacking people and debate the issues.
You refused to express any reason for anyone reading the links, or even to suggest what it is they should find in them. So why should anyone read it? It's a straight question, just answer it.
"...he twists it to say I'm saying there are ambiguities with a lease program, and even more stupidly brings in some 'hawaii accepts it's own birth certificates' statement as if it actually applied."
I've already addressed this and you never refuted it. Stop calling names and discuss the issues.
I didn't twist anything. That site is offered as proof that Hawaii won't accept a birth certificate as proof of Hawaiin birth. The "ambiguities" only entered in to it after that claim was refuted, and you didn't want to admit it. There are no "ambiguities".
Ok, enough of this. Don't read the americanthinker link. We can agree to disagree on the whole certification/certificate issue. Doesn't matter to me anyways, as I've pointed out before, because his father being a British citizen means he is not a natural born citizen. And, no, I'm not going to argue with you on that one again, either. You can certainly continue to ask other people about either issue.
If there is a stench of fear abroad, that being in the sense of the United States, then there may be a good reason. Few men, even the bravest, will venture into the breech as it were. They wait for one person to come forward and break the thin shell of fear. Then they would start to charge into the fray. Self preservation is of course, paramount.
How many dare come forward and criticize the late Martin Luther King? (Ref: "Hoodwinked" Author Jack Cashill). It would be professional suicide. Suicide for what? Better to keep quiet, if one would be ruined as a talk show host. .
Bill Cunningham on at Sunday 10pm EST, has commented on it for weeks. Yet even he has to say that only ten percent of him, could believe Obama was born in Kenya. I believe he is genuine here. I myself wonder about a 12,000 mile jaunt by a vulnerable young woman, her husband being a predator of women, who could have cared less. Her mother was likely her best friend at the time. I will concede she would have wanted to stay near her mother That of course, is not the only question. There is the law regarding natural born.
Still, I don't know and neither do most, where Obama was born. All it needs is for a simple statement from the President under oath. We know what happens to unfortunates who lie to Congress.
Somehow one cannot blame Rush and company.
Thanks. bfl
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