Sorry, I carry a stainless steel Sig Sauer P220ST .45 auto.
Posted on 12/19/2008 3:08:08 PM PST by marktwain
There has been a great deal of discussion about what to carry for an event like Mumbai. Gents, let's think about this. If you happen to be caught up in this at its conclusion, facing a dozen riflemen working together as a unit, and you with your Kel-Tec, what do you think your realistic chances of success are? Being real is not being defeatist, but come on.
Now, at the outset of the event, where there may be only one or two adversaries, it gets a little better in terms of odds. But only a little. You have one advantage and that is the advantage of surprise and one target. They, on the other hand have many avenues of danger to cover, only one which is yours. This will be a rapidly moving fluid situation.
One man was saying that using a cell phone to photograph the bad guys would be good. Pictures of the bad guys on your cell phone? Come on....seriously? If you have the ability to take their picture, you also have the ability to take their life, or GTFOT (get the f*** out of there) so get out of the evidence collecting mindset.
Number two, some guys were discussing carrying a special bag with them with all manner of weapons and gear to facilitate such a fight. Keeping a Bug Out Bag in the office or in the car is a wise move, but I doubt many of us are going to walk around fully kitted out all the time, so I think this will be limited to what you have on your person. Know what....you'll carry your tango bag everywhere until you get sick of it and leave it in the car one day and then, that will be the day and you will fight with what you have on your person anyway.
Those of you with little bitty guns (snubbies and Glock 27s and such), I suggest you rethink your weapon choices. I can run a mini-Glock pretty good, but not as good as a full sized gun. What do I carry? A Glock 22 when at home and a Glock 17 when away. 15 rounds or 17 rounds respectively.
Yes, the bigger gun is harder to hide. Yes, I have to choose my clothing more carefully. Yes, its heavier. All of those things they tell you are true. But when you NEED THE MOTHER F'ING GUN NOW, those uber-comfortable pocket chain guns so popular with the CCW crowd will never allow you to fight as well as a full-sized gun.
Calibers - Please! I will take a 40 or a 9mm over a 45 any day of the week for the simple fact of the matter that I can fight much longer with one than I can with a seven or eight shot weapon. It may have been a caliber edge in 1976 when the only thing going was marginal hollow point ammo, but not today bwana. Ask any of those metro-sexual gun instructors if they want to get shot in the face with my "45 set on stun". Magazine capacity is not an asset, it is a blessing.
Engagement Dynamics - Short range, run and gun, point shooting is an essential skill and must be prioritized for the urban ambush gunfight. However, for anti-terrorist activity, if you find yourself just outside or arm's length with a doped up, combat-trained AK-armed tango, you have already stepped into it. You can still fight, but wouldn't it be far better to be able to ice these monkeys from 25, 50 or even 100 yards?
Read the reports boys. There are folks who had an eye on the action from a distance. "If only I had a gun" was one of the Brit reporters said. The ability to hit out at these distances is not hard at all. But it must be learned and trained. And, your gear must support your ability to do it.
Those uber-court-proof heavy triggers promoted as essential by the lawyer-instructors are trash. Get rid of them. You don't need a hair trigger on your pistol, but you do need a manageable trigger. My Glocks for example all use the standard 5# connector set up and give me a crisp release that is conducive to accuracy. You don't need the 3# target connector, but good heavens don't add one of the abominable New York triggers.
Those big fat close range sights? If you can hit at 100 yards with them, drive on. I cannot, so I use sharply defined black iron sights like the Heines, and the Trijicons. Those of you with eye issues that can't use the irons well enough, invest in one of the Docter red dot sights. Yep....a red dot sight on your pistol. It is small enough to carry around and bright enough that even Mr. Magoo can hit at 100 meters with it.
Another thing - Usually after one of those events I will hear "By golly if I had been there I would have pulled out my custom model 29 and..." That is usually spoken by a guy who hasn't done any physical training since high school, would have a heart attack if he had to run ten feet to cover, and is so out of condition he could not fight his way out of a Sierra Club Tea Party In San Francisco. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but its not just about marksmanship and your ammo choices. If you are already a good shot, you need to get away from the range and into the gym or the street and train your out of shape shooter's body so you will be able to fight not just shoot.
And finally, without which all else is wasted, develop the will to kill. It is hard for some to sneak up on a man and shoot him in the back of the head unannounced, regardless of what the man has done, or is about to do. You need to get over that if you want to be a player at this level. it is not about capturing, or about bringing to justice, or about "stopping the action". it is about getting the drop on a terrorist from a distance, unseen and undetected, putting your sights on his ear, controlling your heartbeat, and then pressing that trigger without a moment's hesitation.
True enough but I suppose that I would rather cross that bridge AFTER engaging the bad guy. I truly go through this scenario in my head whenever I am in the city. My wife thinks I am goofy but I always take the seat facing the entrance, do a full 360 degree scan while walking through the mall or other big public space, keep my jacket unzipped for access, etc. I want to be alert and aware. There is a great essay about the Sheep, the wolves and the Sheep Dogs that you should read if you have not yet done so. My oldest son (Cougar soon to be a LEO) and I have decided that we are sheep dogs. Peaceful, law abiding yet with the capacity to do violence to save the sheep. This is the world we live in now.
Isn’t it wonderful that we can have a thread like this on a public forum?
I pray we’ll still be able to do this four years from now.
So, better to have five shots of .38 than nine shots of .22?
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
Gotcha.
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
Hmmm, I think I could make a body shot at 100 yds. I don’t miss much at 50 feet though.
This is making me rethink my training a little bit. I kind of like the idea of using a pistol as a quick and dirty sniper rifle. I guess I will go spend some time shooting a pistol at a hundred yds to see if it is feasible for me.
My gut is telling me that I would be better off carrying a rifle in my vehicle, but that would probably be way too slow.
AMERICA IS ARMING ITSELF BECAUSE IT CAN’T COUNT ON THE FECKLESS, SPINELESS SO CALLED “I HAVE YOUR BACK LEADERS “ MOST OF YOU VOTED FOR!
Used to be able to hit clays that far with a Ruger Security Six. (Not off hand obviously)
The only good that would come of an American Mumbai - God forbid - would be the end of the Democrat party.
Regarding you and your “Cougar”(?) son, your wife may be right. Goofy. Hope you self-declared “sheep dogs” aren’t too much like the bored, volunteer-fireman arsonists we occasionally have trouble with ‘round here. I’ll take care of myself, thank you very much. Won’t be needing any help from your quivering trigger finger.
“I pray we’ll still be able to do this four years from now.”
Things tell me we will be lucky if we make it that far in 2 years.
Seriously yes. if you practice with squeezing the trigger the 5 shots of .38 will have you better off.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
When the massacre was first reported, I read many posts giving India’s relatively disarmed nature (as compared to the United States) as a factor in:
1. Why it occurred.
2. Why the villains were so successful.
Given that, I think it is defeatist to marginalize the benefit of honest, well-trained folks in that situation. There’s a reason why a soft target is chosen. Even if each sentiment about handguns vs. rifles is correct, these guys didn’t pick a high-risk location, didn’t plan to get rounds returned them. If nothing else, it would put them off their plan. At any rate, if I was stuck in a location like that, I’d want to be armed. That’s the bottom line. You can’t always pick your battles, and some will be pretty miserable. The fellows in 1776 thought “it” worth the effort, not that it would be easy. If you can take a rifleman out, his weapon might become yours. If you are unarmed, it won’t be. The problem of how to distinguish yourself from the bad guys remains, but that is not a reason to cower and wait to be killed. Anyway, no one chose to be assaulted there.
Sorry for segueing onto the War of Independence, but if oppression comes, as it has and will again, it is worth the fight even if the odds are long. I’m not saying “let’s be stupid about it”, only that it is worth the fight.
A little video with the article.
Sorry, I carry a stainless steel Sig Sauer P220ST .45 auto.
In this area I have access to a M1A (.308) that measures less than 31” long with the folding stock. That along with several 20 rd magazines provides a fair measure of capability. Many of the LEOs in this area have similar armament (semi-auto.308 rifles) in their vehicles.
Whatta idiot.
My 2 1/2 S&W .357 keeps ALL 6 shots in the black at 100 yards using Winchester Silvertips (145gr). Just try your carry piece and you will be surprised how well it does.
The Mumbai baddies worked in PAIRS. I would find it VERY strange iffen I couldn’t get a couple of them in all the noise and confusion.
If I had mine, of course.
The best defense here is an armed citizenry (GASP!)
ROTFLMAO
Urban RAMBO wet dream - there I was, up to my knees in spent brass..... SOF magazine warriors.....
If you are in the middle of a shooting war GTFOTD (urr, get outta DOdge) should be your first choice, and if with family, the only choice.
If you HAVE to shoot to get an exit path, fine.
Sorry, I stay awake and try like the dickins to avoid any situation that would require me to shoot anyone. I even carry a scanner most of the time (IC-Q7A)
I have to consider if the area we will visit even requires a second magazine.
But - I pratice, my family pratices as a family (you know, fun day(s) at the range and all that) and I have no doubt that any adult in the family is ready and able to end a situation with deadly force.
But only if we have been forced into a corner with no other options. Killing someone should be a last choice option.
(OK, flame suit on)
That’ll knock something down all right but you can only fire it once with each hand.
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