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Mumbai photographer: I wish I'd had a gun, not a camera. Armed police would not fire back
Belfast Telegraph ^ | 29 November 2008 | Jerome Taylor

Posted on 11/29/2008 11:17:52 AM PST by Leisler

It is the photograph that has dominated the world's front pages, casting an astonishing light on the fresh-faced killers who brought terror to the heart of India's most vibrant city. Now it can be revealed how the astonishing picture came to be taken by a newspaper photographer who hid inside a train carriage as gunfire erupted all around him.

Sebastian D'Souza, a picture editor at the Mumbai Mirror, whose offices are just opposite the city's Chhatrapati Shivaji station, heard the gunfire erupt and ran towards the terminus. "I ran into the first carriage of one of the trains on the platform to try and get a shot but couldn't get a good angle, so I moved to the second carriage and waited for the gunmen to walk by," he said. "They were shooting from waist height and fired at anything that moved. I briefly had time to take a couple of frames using a telephoto lens. I think they saw me taking photographs but theydidn't seem to care."

The gunmen were terrifyingly professional, making sure at least one of them was able to fire their rifle while the other reloaded. By the time he managed to capture the killer on camera, Mr D'Souza had already seen two gunmen calmly stroll across the station concourse shooting both civilians and policemen, many of whom, he said, were armed but did not fire back. "I first saw the gunmen outside the station," Mr D'Souza said. "With their rucksacks and Western clothes they looked like backpackers, not terrorists, but they were very heavily armed and clearly knew how to use their rifles.

"Towards the station entrance, there are a number of bookshops and one of the bookstore owners was trying to close his shop," he recalled. "The gunmen opened fire and the shopkeeper fell down."

But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

As the gunmen fired at policemen taking cover across the street, Mr D'Souza realised a train was pulling into the station unaware of the horror within. "I couldn't believe it. We rushed to the platform and told everyone to head towards the back of the station. Those who were older and couldn't run, we told them to stay put."

The militants returned inside the station and headed towards a rear exit towards Chowpatty Beach. Mr D'Souza added: "I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; cowardlycops; india; leo; mohammedanism; mumbai
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To: Leisler

Thank you for all your informed and penetrating posts.


241 posted on 11/30/2008 5:41:54 PM PST by marktwain
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To: elli1

Correct.

You are true, about a time and event.


242 posted on 11/30/2008 8:52:36 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

Bean there done that, with a slap on the head for burning up magazines.


243 posted on 11/30/2008 8:54:21 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: ConservativeCompendium.net

Compared to the Indian police, they were well trained. They were not anywhere near a US Special Operator. But few are.


244 posted on 11/30/2008 8:58:50 PM PST by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran
One incident, I had to fire off a M-16, and had to have the ejection into the ears of less than fellow Army Spartans. By the end of the week, things went down hill. There was an, sort of, CID investigation, but it came down to he said, I said.
245 posted on 11/30/2008 9:00:21 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: ExSoldier

They were well trained compared to the Indian Police. They were not comparable to US Special Operators, but few are. They also outgunned the Indian Police. It wasn’t until the Army and Commandos showed up that the tide turned. As for the rest of your post, I couldn’t agree more.


246 posted on 11/30/2008 9:05:02 PM PST by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: TFMcGuire
Sure, of course, I understand.

But, shy as you are, you are persuasive. Your command of history and military doctrine is without peer. Thank God you have entered the ranks of Cesare, Machiavelli, L. D. Heart.
I only wished when I sat with Sgt. Major Murphy, and Colonel Beckwith, as a total whelp, we could of had your commanding presences. No doubt your every post is recorded in every military academe, from the Hudson to Beijing.

247 posted on 11/30/2008 9:12:56 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: Squantos
You have to put aside your moral and ethical feeling about these actors.

I am not saying that ethics and morals are not definitive, but just you have to stand back, like a surgeon,and separate your self from the thickets of subjective bagage, look at the events coldly.

On, their plus side, they did quite a lot.
Physically, economically, they did nothing.

I don't think they scared the Indian population. If, anything, they have unified the Indians. So, other that the press, they have lost in every measure.

Other than back at home cave, or where ever they came from, the action was a loser.

248 posted on 11/30/2008 9:23:38 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: TFMcGuire
Oh, and baby something you don't know, and I did and do, and better said than I could...

Dave Grossman, who spoke to me about ”the bulletproof mind,” has written about the hidden logic behind military training. In his controversial book ”On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,” he writes: ”It is entirely possible that no one intentionally sat down to use operant conditioning or behavior modification techniques to train soldiers in this area. But from the standpoint of a psychologist who is also a historian and a career soldier, it has become increasingly obvious to me that this is exactly what has been achieved.” …

Indeed, Special Forces officers openly discuss the use of ‘’stress inoculation” — in which they are exposed to heartbeat-racing drills that raise their threshold for staying calm. It doesn’t mean Special Forces soldiers are immune to stress or the mistakes that stress causes, but it takes a lot more to rattle one of them than an old-time draftee…. Special Forces soldiers may develop cold-blooded reflexes, but they are also trained to know when not to kill. Targets that pop up during shooting drills include women and children who are not supposed to be shot. Being able to remain steady in combat doesn’t just mean you will be a quick draw; it also means that you will do a better job of deciding when to hold your fire. As Grossman writes of the calibration of aggression: ”This is a delicate and dangerous process. Too much, and you end up with a My Lai. . . . Too little, and your soldiers will be defeated and killed by someone who is more aggressively disposed.” Colonel King put it like this: ”Our guys have got to be confident in their ability to use lethal force. But they’ve got to be principled enough to know when not to use it. We’re not training pirates.” Exactly how does one train soldiers to be effective and yet principled killers? Operant conditioning is part of it. The goal of this process of accustoming military members to killing in wartime is to reduce their psychological and physical stress/fear, in order to avoid panic. And why is this so important? Because it’s this stress/panic reaction (as well as a number of other factors, to be discussed in a moment) that can lead to the commission of atrocities in war.

The training, as described by the aforementioned Colonel Dave Grossman (an expert in the field), is as follows:

Many people think killing is a natural act, but Col. Grossman argues that it isn’t. He discusses how new and innovative pop up targets, video-based firearms training simulators, and Simunition®-based training are used to facilitate overcoming this innate resistance. These devices are then combined with high repetition to condition a correct response even in the face of fear….

Sometimes, a deadly force encounter explodes without warning, or a fight can be so fast and furious that there is no time to think about which technique to use and how best to employ it. To survive, you must do what needs to be done – now. In order to react reflexively, yet responsibly, and continue to fight no matter how impaired, you must have a set of conditioned responses ingrained into your mind.

Range training must be repetitive. When a pop up target of a bad guy appears (stimulus), you shoot (response). Stimulus-response, stimulus-response, and then a pop up target of a man holding a cell phone appears, you don’t shoot. The more realistic the target is, the better…. Realistic settings and situations, combined with live fire training using Simunition rounds will dramatically elevate your adrenaline to replicate how a real situation feels. The more you engage in this kind of training, the lower your heart rate gets as you become “inoculated” against combat, just as a vaccination will inoculate against a disease.

Been there, been that.

249 posted on 11/30/2008 9:55:36 PM PST by Leisler ("Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever. " Lenin)
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To: Republic of Texas
They were well trained compared to the Indian Police. They also outgunned the Indian Police. It wasn’t until the Army and Commandos showed up that the tide turned.

Compare the Indian police to the SWAT team at Colombine. That's the issue.Well at Colombine, the SWAT didn't act because it was outside their doctrine (active shooters). In this incident, the police didn't act because it was outside their training and abilities. A lack of training leads to a lack of courage.

The terrorists had about the same training the Afghan mujahadeen give to a nine year old terrorist. Spray from the hip, pull pin and toss grenade, continue to spray. Reload, spray more. Prepare to receive your virgins!

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that these people don't require more than rudimentary training on the weapons themselves. They don't need training because from the moment of birth they're inculcated with the doctrine that sheep are meant to be slaughtered. All it takes is a "muj warrior" and paradise is within the grasp. These animals are well trained compared to the average American citizen sheep who know nothing of weapons or the sheepdog mindset. I would still put my IDPA club against them anyday.

250 posted on 12/01/2008 3:44:16 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Republic of Texas
I doubt any local police force would stand up against what was basically a Special Op’s force. There were brave Indians who gave their lives to stop this attack, they acted with courage, and the political leadership acted faster than the US government would have. We’d still be negotiating and sending in donuts.

Police don't want any Human Right Commission investigation. 15 days back Mumbai killed they killed a gun wielding lunatic on Bus and they are now facing HRC inquiry without pay.

251 posted on 12/01/2008 10:52:25 AM PST by sanatan2000
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To: KoRn

The New River must be a wide deep river to take an hour to “ford” it. :)


252 posted on 12/01/2008 2:59:14 PM PST by TYVets
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To: Leisler

It’s good to know that.

Kelly is on top of things.


253 posted on 12/01/2008 3:14:30 PM PST by Palladin (Obama on Ayers: "He's just a guy in my neighborhood." LIAR!!!)
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Comment #254 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger
You have freepmail
255 posted on 12/04/2008 8:37:37 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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Comment #256 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger
Your link is now no longer valid for some reason.

Huh? Still work when I click on them.

257 posted on 12/07/2008 10:20:17 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Republic of Texas
Few days later it was revealed that the 20,000 "police" in the Mubai region (which has 70 million+ people) have about 552 firearms.

First of all, I am simply amazed that 70 million people can be policed anywhere with only 20,000 police.

Secondly, it's gotta' be really difficult to do if 19,448 of those police have no firearms.

258 posted on 12/11/2008 4:41:16 PM PST by muawiyah
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