I personally find this anti-American, anti-democracy.
Since when can the church tell the state what to do, “or else”.
Our founding fathers made seperation of church and state for a very good reason. The State couldn’t tell the church what to think or do, and the church couldn’t tell the State what to think or do. When either side starts meddling in the others affairs, both sides get corrupted. The founding fathers SAW this, they KNEW this, they wanted to protect against this.
Uphold our founding fathers good intentions and the constitution, tell the church to mind it’s own business, else the State will start minding it. They’re trying to weild a two edged knife that’s best kept sheathed.
The Church IS minding her own business - if you support this, you are NOT a Catholic in good standing. Choose.
“Our founding fathers made seperation of church and state...”
WRONG! Show me where you find that phrase in our Constitution. That ignorant argument is taken completely out of context from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists in Danbury Connecticut.
AND...
The Church has every RIGHT to disciplin its OWN... fellow Catholics are OBLIGED to PRACTICE the teachings of THEIR FAITH... Otherwise they are NOT in UNION with the Church, and therefore NOT Catholic.
Get a clue wiseguy.
Should the Church “mind its own business” if another Hitler comes to power?
Your argument is infantile.
Separation of Church and State (as you define it) is not enshrined in the Constitution. The gov may make no law about religion. It goes ONLY in one direction.
The Church is dictating to Her Catholic members only.
The Church proposes, not dictates. Society is free to listen, but Catholics should pay heed in certain areas.
I find democracy to be anti-American. We're a Republic, by God, and we'd best stay that way.
Since when can the church tell the state what to do, “or else”.
The Church can, does, and should tell its members when certain actions would cause their membership to cease. Actions have consequences. If you don't carry your principles, whatever they may be, into the voting booth with you please quit voting.
tell the church to mind it’s (sic) own business,
The Church most certainly is minding her business ... Freedom of speech applies to ALL citizens ... even those who wear the Roman Collar you appear to hate.
You seem to have a poor understanding of "Freedom". Stick around, you might learn something.
Add another to the list that doesnt have a clue what "Separation of Church and State" means. You may want to go looking for it in the Constitution, Bill or Rights, and Declaration....Oh wait, its not there!!!
. The "wall of separation" was a phrase that Jefferson used when writing to a Baptist group. He wasnt saying that religion should stay out of politics, he was saying that the state shouldnt have a STATE RUN CHURCH!! The state should not be in the business of picking out a PARTICULAR SECT or denomination to be the official religion. If you read the comments of the signer of the Declaration and the Constitution, they would be sickened by how religion is given a back seat in the bus of today's culture. If you dont have values based in a religion, then why would you ever want to do anything "right"?
. What is right in your eyes, may not be right in my eyes. Why not go out and steal and murder? Because its not right? Not right says who? Me? So what! Your values are no better than mine! Our values are based on SOMETHING!!! When you figure out what that something is then you have your answer on "State and Church" ...... .
[[The State couldn’t tell the church what to think or do, and the church couldn’t tell the State what to think or do.]]
This is hte only correct statement you made- although it MUST be clarified even further- The Church can recommend to the state, and the State can recommend to hte church- but neither can FORCE the other- Anti-Christians however take the ‘seperation of church and state’ WAY too far changing it’s original intentions to somethign it NEVER meant. The constitition ALSO mentions freedom OF religion- not freedom FROM religion. State officials ARE free to worship and express their religions in public, and even to have religious beliefs shape hteir opinions.
The ‘seperation of church and state’ issue applies to the GOVERNING of either side- The State is prevented by our constitution from forcing the church to change their internal governings- the State can NOT force the church to decide matters- and that sir is hte crux of the whole issue- Neither can the church FORCE the state to govern or change the governments internal governing-
In England- the Church did EXACTLY this- they FORCED the government to abide by the church’s own personal governings- and our founding fathers wanted to prevent this kind of corruption from ever happenign again, and thus our constitution- NOWHERE in our constituion however is it EVER mentioned that the government must abstain from anythign religious or that they must abstain fro m freely expressing hteir own personal religious beleifs and convictions- The whole reason we have a ‘balance’ in opur government is to allow EVERY manner of opinion- religious or not- and the majority rule can overirde or accept any opinion they like as long as it is constituiional, and it protects the TRUE rights of individuals of all faiths or non faiths.
The church of England trampled all over the rights of people, and we, the USA, decided that that kind of corruption should never happen again, but at hte same time, we as a nation recognized the value of certain religious beliefs because they infact DO protect all rights, and we decided that those rights and opinions should forever be protected as well under our constitution.
Secularism does NOT protect ALL rights- Complete secularism tramples all over the rights of religious folks, and quite frankly, Secularism is nothign but a rleigion in and of itself dressed up in government garb, and paraded around as beign the most tolorant when infact is is nothign of hte kind- it amoutns sir to a overnment ENFORCED religious beleif that God should not be any part of our government- Secularism is a true religious beleief inthat it ardently and fervently beleives in an idea that quite frankly violates our constitution and hte protection of religion and expression- it also violates the right to free speech. Secularists however are loathe to even admit this, but htis is a FACT.
“Since when can the church tell the state what to do, “or else”.”
Don’t be stupid. Excommunicating a person for killing a child is not telling the state what to do.
The person in question gets too make a choice. You have no RIGHT to call yourself a Catholic or participate in the sacrament of of communion.
Since John the Baptist told Herod that it was not right for him to fool around with his brother's wife. And just as John paid for his outspokenness with his head, so today, some still become enraged to hear truth spoken.
I love it, though. When the subject is Pius XII, Hitler and WWII, the vacuous refrain is "the Catholic Church should have spoken out more. It didn't do enough".
When the subject is the American government, the habitual attitude is STFU!! Don't tell the state what to do!
The exact opposite, IOW.
We can't win! We're too silent.......we're too outspoken.....no, we're too silent........no wait, we're too outspoken!
You're telling us that if another Hitler were to come along the Church should keep its nose out of the situation? Here's a clue. All moral matters are within the purview of the Catholic Church which was established by Jesus Christ and answers to God, not man!!!
*sighs*
People don't understand freedom of speech or the freedom of religion. The Free Republic has the right to ban people who make racist posts. The Catholic Church has the right to excommunicate people who violate what they deem to be non-negotiable issues. It is only a violation of freedom of speech/religion when the punishment goes beyond getting kicked out of a private group and becomes legally set by the government. E.g. if the Catholic Church could arrest politicians or boot them out of office for being pro-choice, then you'd have a violation of church and state.
Do yourself an American favor and take some time to learn about them, starting with The Federalist Papers. Is your public education recent?
Any time it wants. The Constitution protects freedom of speech and belief, doesn't it?
Our founding fathers made seperation of church and state for a very good reason.
Which means what? Did you know that that phrase does not appear in the Constitution? With the First Amendment, the Founders wanted to promote religious freedom while preventing the establishment of a national church, like the Church of England. Period. Did you know that many individual states had established churches at the time of the revolution, and well into the 1800s?
The State couldn’t tell the church what to think or do, and the church couldn’t tell the State what to think or do.
This passes for conventional wisdom because it's what's taught in government schools, but it's unrelated to the Constitution and the historical facts. In practice, the State rightly restricts the extent of some religious practices (i.e., polygamy, human sacrifice), while giving churches wide authority over their members with regard to religious doctrines and practices. This is what the Founders intended.
Finally, the Church is simply exercising its religious disciplinary authority over its own members. Moreover, the Church is not using violence, or the threat of violence, to enforce its teachings. The Church is simply using moral suasion.
When the people doing the doing claim to be Catholics, the church is absolutely right to tell them they will cease to be Catholics in good standing.
That isn't telling "the state" anything. That's telling Catholics what's required of them to be faithful Catholics.
Or else what?
Only Roman Catholics care if they are excommunicated, and if a given person unrepentantly supports killing children, then they aren’t Roman Catholic.
Might as well make it official.
Hey feller, when you find “THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE” clause in the Constitution, post it for the rest of us who just can’t seem to find it. I’ve looked and looked, but none of the copies I have seen have that clause in it.
Only members of the Church can receive Communion.
The individuals, themselves, have chosen to dissociate themselves from the Church.