“Help me out here, Madam Speaker” ( “I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins” )

California Catholic Daily ^ | August 25, 2008 | staff

[kellynla]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, described herself yesterday morning on NBC’s Meet the Press as “an ardent, practicing Catholic,” then told moderator Tom Brokaw and an audience of millions that Church teaching on when human life begins is unclear.

Besides, said Pelosi, even if life does begin at conception, that would not change her pro-abortion views. “The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose,” she said. “Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child -- first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There's very clear distinctions. This isn't about abortion on demand, it's about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and – to -- that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god.”

Brokaw was quizzing the Speaker on Sen. Barack Obama’s response last week to Pastor Rick Warren’s straightforward question at the Saddleback Forum, “At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?”

Asked Brokaw, “Senator Obama saying the question of when life begins is above his pay grade, whether you're looking at it scientifically or theologically. If he were to come to you and say, ‘Help me out here, Madam Speaker. When does life begin?’ what would you tell him?”

Here is Pelosi’s response: “I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator -- St. Augustine said at three months. We don't know... And so I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins.

[MHGinTN]

By the end of the first three months of his or her lifetime, the new little one is complete, such that just getting bigger is what happens thereafter. EXCEPT in such an organ as the brain, which continues to be built until three to five months AFTER birth. And the essential thign to note is that the new little one builds ALL the tissues and organs for his or her life in the air world, the mother’s body makes none of them after conception occurs and the new life begins to express in cell division.

[BlueSun]

Actually, the Catholic Church didn’t consider abortion to be murder for almost 1900 years. The official Church doctrine until 1869 was that a human soul wasn’t imparted into the fetus until “quickening” which is sometime around 16-17 weeks, which is well into the second trimester. This “delayed ensoulment” or “delayed hominization” was part of the Canon from the beginning. St. Augustine even said that it was not a sin to abort a female fetus for a period much longer than a male fetus.

There was always spirited debate over when ensoulment took place among Catholic scholars, but the delayed ensoulment school was the dominant one.

In 1312, at the Council of Vienne, St. Thomas Aquinas, who opposed abortion and contraception as a sin against marriage, also firmly maintained that it was NOT murder unless the fetus was ensouled with a human soul. Aquinas followed the most consistent theory of ensoulment in the history of Christianity; that first the fetus is endowed with a vegitative soul, then an animal soul, and then, when its body is developed and it is quickened, it is endowed with a human soul.

In 1588, Pope Sixtus V, concerned about rampant prostitution, issued a Papal Bull called Effraenatam, outlawing all contraception and abortion at any stage of pregnancy. His decree lasted for 3 years. in 1591, he died, and his successor, Pope Gregory XIV, rescinded Effraenatum and replaced it with Sedes Apostolica, which restored the “ensoulment” period to the fetus’s animation (quickening).

In 1869, Popr Pius IX was campaigning within the Church to have the doctrine of “Papal Infallability” accepted into the Canon. He sought the support of France’s Napolean III. Napolean, worried over a century-long decline in French population, offered a deal. If the Pope would outlaw ALL abortions, Napoleon would support Papal Infallability. The deal was struck and Pius issued Apostolicae Sedis, calling for excommunication (the penalty for murder) for abortion at any stage of pregnancy.

Pius IX’s ruling was finally added to the Code of Canon Law in 1917, only 91 years ago.

So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma.

It is also ironic that so many people who feel so passionately that all abortion is, ipso facto, murder of an ensouled human, have no idea how recently this concept was adopted in Christianity. For most of its history, Pelosi’s view was much closer to the truth. The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.

[kellynla]

and the link for your “history” is?

[new cruelty]

Wow. Just wow. Well, more than wow... but just wow for now.

[Righter-than-Rush]

“Don’t believe the Bible! Anything but the Bible! It can’t be true when it says life begins at conception! It just can’t! I don’t know why, it just can’t! Think of another explanation. Here’s a billion dollars, go develop an answer that gullible people addicted to media will believe! Hurry! My floor time is over in five minutes!”

[doug from upland]

Skip to comments.(archives) DFU SONG: All Out of Love (abortion song)
DFU SONG PARODIES | 1-22-03 | Lyrics, Doug from Upland

Posted on 01/22/2003 5:21:34 PM PST by doug from upland

MIDI - ALL OUT OF LOVE

It’s twenty one weeks and the baby is ill
But what is the doctor to do?
He’s there in the womb and there isn’t much hope
A miracle soon comes true
Mom says “Operate…because Samuel needs help”
The whole thing is very well planned
The doctor’s surprised when his finger is grabbed
“My God, it is Samuel’s hand…tiny hand

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopped somehow

For too many years many babies like him
Were ripped from their safe mother’s womb
Purveyors of death taking innocent life
Hell waits for those in that room

They’re selfish and cruel…they are evil indeed
How many more babies must die?
We can’t turn our heads…we all have to stand up
We hear the angels cry…angels cry

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopped somehow

Oh, how many more must die…can't you hear angels cry?
How many more must die…can't you hear angels cry?

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

[new cruelty]

... So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma. ...

Summing it up- pelosi disagrees with current Catholic and general Christian dogma and is clutching onto anything in the past that would support murdering unborn children.

[doug from upland]

ANTI-ABORTION SONG ON YOUTUBE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLT0vFceD8

[kellynla]

Well, what about it, Newbie...
gotta a link for that “history” you posted...

[doug from upland]

[BlueSun]

I wonder how many Christians actually do live up to the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20. The Second Commandment says:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven [sculpted] image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It is the reason that Protestant denominations use a plain Cross, without the graven image of the body of Jesus hung on it.

Since the entire Catholic faith revolves around the use of graven images, from the Christmas Creche to the statues of Jesus and Mary, statues of Jesus on the Cross, and the pantheon of saints, the Catholic Church conveniently removed the Second Commandment as if it had never existed, moved Commandments 3 through 9 down one in number, and split up the Tenth Commandment into two, to cover the gap.

At least the Protestant version of the Ten Commandments stays faithful to that of the Old Testament.

By the way, how many modern Christians have stoned somebody to death for working on the Sabbath? How many have stoned their own child for acting disrespectful and failing to honor his or her father or mother?

Leviticus 20:9 For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

For that matter, how many have read Leviticus and marveled at all of the laws that Christians (and all but the most Orthodox Jews) cheerfully ignore. It seems that, in the entire book of Leviticus, the only law that is still quoted today is the injunction against man lying down with man as with woman (it is the basis for Christian condemnation of homosexuality).

"One day a man was asked if there were any true atheists. Do you think, he replied, there are any true Christians?"

~Denis Diderot, Pensées philosophiques, 1746

[BlueSun]

I don't have the link handy, since this is a copy of a previous post I made elsewhere. But the sole source for all of the information is from the website of the Catholic University of America.

[BlueSun]

You have the unfortunate tendency to put words in others’ mouths to change their meaning when their arguments do not support your own belief. How convenient for you.

I was just pointing out that Christians throughout history have disagreed and debated when a fetus is ensouled and when or whether abortion is or is not murder. Pelosi is within that tradition. In fact, if it weren’t for a deal made by Pius IX and Napolean III, to get Napolean’s endorsement of Papal Infallibility, it is not totally beyond the ken that the Church would STILL not consider abortion to be murder during the first four months or so.

It is you who miss the entire point - that for 1869 years, the official Catholic position was that abortion before ensoulment WAS NOT MURDERING UNBORN CHILDREN.

In fact, the penance for abortion (which was sometimes treated as a minor sin against marriage) was the same as for masturbation, and far, far less than that of ‘serious’ sins like adultery.

You can use emotionally-laden words to cover up the fact that you are not offering a reasoned rebuttal to my post (which came straight from the website of the Catholic University of America, BTW). Please try to stick to reason and facts, and not just jingoism.

BTW, I am not totally unfamiliar with Christian theology, or that of the other major religions, as I once was an associate professor of Comparative Religions at a major western university before I gave up teaching, frustrated by the intellectual laziness, as well as the low intellectual quality of too many of the students.

[BlueSun]

Given that at least Evangelical Christians believe in the inerrancy of a 2,000 year old book (and the history of interpretation given to it by two millenia of Christian scholars), your willingness to diss pelosi for “clutching onto anything in the past that would “support murdering unborn children” is astonishing. So you would dismiss St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas as well as 1,900 years of Christian dogma as merely “anything in the past” supporting murder. Interrrrrresting....

Did Christianity just erupt out of the ether in the past century? By the way, the past history of Christianity DOES NOT support murdering unborn children, it explains why abortion before ensoulment at quickening is NOT MURDERING UNBORN CHILDREN.

Sheesh, try to read for context next time.

[grellis]

The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.

How is this not anything but completely going off on a tangent???

If you want to discuss Christian theology in the context of history, post a thread on the Religion forum.

[new cruelty]

Oh no, now I have upset you by attacking pelosi. Remain calm. I’m merely pointing out that nancy wants to murder unborn children and will claw onto anything that will further that cause. That’s pretty much it.

[BlueSun]

No moral issue is as simple and black-and-white as most people make it. Lets try out a thought experiment.

You see a building on fire and hear a child screaming for help. When you enter the burning building, you see that it is an in-vitro fertilization lab. To your left is a 3-year-old girl cowering fearfully in the corner, screaming in terror. To your right, on a table, is a tray of a dozen fertilized ova waiting to be implanted in womens' wombs. The ova had been extracted from the womens' ovaries and fertilized just hours before with their husbands' sperm.

The fire is spreading and you only have time to rescue one or the other. Do you rescue the one human being in the corner, or the twelve human beings in the tray?

Once you have come up with an answer to that, let's make it even more difficult - the child is your daughter and two of the fertilized ova are from you and your spouse.

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, just to add some depth to an issue that is usually rendered by both sides into simplistic excluded-middle (black-or-white) positions.

[new cruelty]

Settle down. You’re getting bent out of shape. It is not my intent to convince you. You yourself stated nancy disagrees with current dogma. And I agree with you.

[kellynla]

Yea, well, Newbie, I suggest you bring your homework and be prepared to defend your posts when you come to a debate or don’t post.

Your “history” is inaccurate. And when you find your link to your “history”, let us know.

In the meantime, here is a link to what the earliest beliefs of the Church and even B.C. regarding abortion were.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

[BlueSun]

An odd request. Haven't you been reading the thread? The entire thrust of this thread on pelosi has revolved around Christianity - in particular Catholicism - and its teachings on abortion. The history of those teachings is critical to understanding what pelosi and her detractors are saying. Or does it bother you to look beneath the surface jingoism and cliches?

Do you single me out after close to 100 posts, virtually all religion-based (when they are not just gratuitous insults of an admittedly ridiculous woman) just because you disagree with me? Where has the Free in FreeRepublic gone?