Posted on 08/21/2008 6:29:23 PM PDT by Alice in Wonderland
That wasn't the question Shrodinger was asking. The basic question was what determines the wave function collapse and what role the observer plays.
All we ‘see’ is photons.
Waves of nothing : )
Solid? Did you miss seeing the electron they filmed?
“The basic question was what determines the wave function collapse and what role the observer plays. “
So, the question of ‘do we cause, or affect, the outcome by looking in the box’ was exactly what Schrodinger was ‘asking’.
“Solid? Did you miss seeing the electron they filmed? “
It wasn’t the electron they saw, it was only it’s wake.
Which was found upon the waves of nothing.
Okay, LeGrande - well, then, to rephrase - the very quivery, zippy, dodgey, mass of electrons in the atoms that compose LeGrande.
Now you are getting the idea.
I 'see' them just fine : )
So back to the question. Do you agree or disagree?
First, it may have been the question he asked, but the problem is ‘what was his conclusion?’.
Assuming his conclusion was in favor of the question he posed, and assuming it is what you mean too, the answer is YES.
.....
.....
(to be clearer, Yes, I agree)
Ahh, then we disagree. I tend to agree with the Copenhagen Convention : ) I think the observer determines the outcome or at least influences the outcome.
Einstein and Schrodinger lost the debate, because they couldn't take the observer out of the equation.
OK. Somewhere on the staircases in the M.C. Escher picture, we must have walked past each other.
Maybe I was not clear enough, or maybe it was you.
You said “That wasn’t the question Shrodinger was asking. The basic question was what determines the wave function collapse and what role the observer plays. “
I thought I made it clear that I agree that ‘the observer influences the outcome’.
Which is not what the Copenhagen Convention indicated, nor Schrodinger, nor Einstein.
The truth is, they were all wrong.
Which is not what the Copenhagen Convention indicated, nor Schrodinger, nor Einstein.
The truth is, they were all wrong.
Huh? That is precisely what the Copenhagen convention determined. And what Einstein reluctantly had to accept (many years later) when he ran out of arguments.
” The truth is, they were all wrong.”
Perhaps not well stated.
Elements of the experiment were ‘right’. But the overall conclusion was wrong.
To help clear up the matter, I’ll just ask you.
Did the observation cause the outcome?
Since there is no way to observe the outcome, without observing the experiment, can we ever know?
P.S.
Are we influencing the outcome of the trials of these FLDS men by observing the indictments?
Observation causes the wave/function to collapse and our observation can determine the outcome. The question really is, does the wave/function collapse without observation?
Since there is no way to observe the outcome, without observing the experiment, can we ever know?
Which was Schrodinger's point : )
Yes. (A little bit)
“The question really is, does the wave/function collapse without observation?”
Which led to the laymen’s analogy, “If a tree falls in the forest.....”
“Which was Schrodinger’s point : )”
Too bad he didn’t have a cat.
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