Posted on 08/15/2008 2:27:26 PM PDT by XR7
I hope everyone has heard about the war in South Ossetia and Georgia. You probably are convinced by what the media reports, in particular that “Russia is the aggressor against innocent Georgia”. Our government is backing Georgia and also telling us about Russia’s aggression. But that is a lie. I have always made fun of the conspiracy theory people, but I find myself in the same position–criticizing the government and sounding crazy. But I cannot keep quite when such an injustice is going on; so please do not take my words as that of a crazy man who hates America–on the contrary, this country has given me many blessings for which I am endlessly thankful; I care about it and am deeply saddened by how effectively the media has fed us propaganda over the last week. Please read the following short account of my story:
I grew up in Abkhazia, a country only hours away from South Ossetia (see map below). I lived through the 1992 war between Georgia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia. I have been bombed and shot at by the Georgians. Right now we are in contact with our family in Abkhazia and we receive information first hand with no media bias. I know what I am talking about.
Georgia attacked South Ossetia, destroying its capital Tskhinvali, killing innocent people; Russia came in to protect the Ossetians. If Russia did not step in, Georgians would further the attack and take over Abkhazia; my family would be slaughtered by now. Yet, I am absolutely shocked, absolutely astonished how the media lies to us, telling us “Russia was the aggressor”. I have never, NEVER thought this can be possible in the US–I always believed that the US government has good intentions. Not anymore. All I heard on the news is that “Georgia is an ally that Russia attacked” and similar such lies. George Bush is supporting Saakashvili, the man who lies left and right, and attacks innocent civilians. I cannot believe my ears.
I am not protecting the Russian government, because I do understand that it is likely corrupt also. Of course they are not innocent. However, that does not mean that WE Americans can support injustice just because it is going against the rival power Russia. The bottom line is that Georgia attacked first; they attacked civilians. Russians fought on behalf of the Ossetians. Yet, the media has zero coverage on the devastation of the South Ossetian people. This is just ridiculous.
Why am I writing this? I do not know what else I can do. I must speak the truth. I am paying taxes to the US government, which supports Georgia, which in turn bombs my homeland; in other words, I am funding the destruction of my own people. How can I keep quiet?
I know you don’t go to a photographer’s blog to read about politics, so I will stop now. Please do watch the videos below. Please be informed. Please feel free to ask me any questions (photodu@gmail.com). Please speak the truth.
I hope you have read my other responses—i DO NOT THINK RUSSIA IS INNOCENT. I have been repeating this over and over. I just don’t think Saakashvili has any right to want to take back Abkhazia and Ossetia, knowing that a lot of people will die
Georgian refugees' plight is grimThe Georgia-Russia conflict is estimated to have displaced as many as 100,000 people, many of whom are yet to receive any aid.
TBILISI, GEORGIA — They squat in abandoned buildings, crash in rickety schoolhouses or sleep under bushes and trees. They stumble into the city wooden-faced and traumatized, children in tow, with little or nothing but the clothes they were wearing when they fled their houses. Tens of thousands of Georgians have been forced from their homes by days of fighting and Russian occupation, leaving this small country suddenly swamped in a major humanitarian crisis. Georgia is now packed with homeless and panicked families in desperate need of shelter, clothes, food and medicine. This week's cease-fire has not ended the suffering. The crush of displaced people has proved more than the government or aid organizations can handle...
LINK to story:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-humanitarian16-2008aug16,0,6825143.story
I will be out all day today (and maybe tomorrow), so will not be able to continue the discuss for now. However, I would like to say some words:
1. Again, I repeat, again I repeat—I do not think Russia is innocent. I do not think killing civilian Georgians is ok. I do not think that Putin has good intentions in general. I do not hate the people of Georgia.
2. What I am saying is that (a) Saakashvili is a liar and a bad leader, who wants to take South Ossetia and Abkhazia; he knows that would kill thousands upon thousands. South Ossetians should do as they please. (b) All of you should be more realistic and stop painting Saakashvili as an angel, because he isn’t. You blame me for being biased even though I am much more balanced, because I do not think any of the sides are blameless, but all of you seem to think that. (c)The american media is way way way to biased; it’s just propaganda
3. Please please watch the videos on my blog (danielusenko.wordpress.com) and also watch these two videos: http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=2042 and http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=2056
I believe this is the most balanced news I’ve seen so far. Main point—everybody sucks.
4. I hope all of the fighting is stopped, both by the Russians and the Georgians, and everybody in between. I know that the civilians want peace, but the politicians want land. That is a sad fact of our world.
Printed from Georgian captives marched through rebel capital
GEORGIA : Dozens of haggard Georgian captives were marched through the South Ossetian capital on Saturday, as officials appealed for Georgia to recover the rotting corpses of its soldiers. The mostly elderly men -- apparently all civilians -- walked with their heads bowed and their hands behind their backs, escorted by armed guards. Locals stopped to take pictures on their mobile phones. Some pointed and laughed as the detainees marched through Tskhinvali. One woman said: "Those are the prisoners? But they're just old men!" Seventeen of the men were brought to the courtyard of the separatist territory's defence ministry to sweep up shards of glass and rubble from the fierce fighting between Georgian forces against Russian troops and separatist rebels last week. Thirty others were brought to a base on the northern edge of the city, walking through clouds of dust as Mi-8 Russian military helicopters flew low overhead. They were taken to a warehouse to unload food aid for South Ossetians. As the men were brought out of the cellars of the interior ministry building where they are being held, a soldier whacked one of them on the back of the head. Many of the men had black eyes and bruises on their faces...
Liebensraum.
Oh - sorry for misunderstanding.
Presidents come and go, and this one in Georgia, like them all, has strong and weak points. I think what you are missing out on is that the PEOPLE of Georgia want to be united with the west, not just the president.
All of the people in Georgia want to be freed from Russian tyranny. That is why huge crowds went to the airport to meet the planes with humanitarian aid from us, and flew both Georgian and American flags.
Disgusting, isn’t it? Made me want to vomit. Russian troops didn’t used to behave this way. I know.
In the last war with Georgia, they were far more honorable and
decent. Chechnya has changed them into sadists.
It was Sinatra. Hot diggity dog ziggity boom.
All people want to be free of tyranny. Both Georgians, Abkhazians, and Ossetians. My guess is that in general, the civilians do not have a problem of letting go of the “lost” territories as long as there peace. That is why I am upset at Saakashvili, that he would rather have war than let go Abkhazia and S.Ossetia.
(Yes, i know, Russia didn’t let go of Chechnya. I believe that is wrong. That is what I mean when I say Russia is not innocent)
actually historically, nations that are majority monoethnic or mono-racial outside Negroid Africa fare better than polyglot attempts.
we are right now dealing with numerous locales where multi ethnicity causes issues from just irritating to all out war and or genocide
racial and to a degree ethnic mix in the US has proven exhausting and very problematic and is not much better now than it has ever been historically
Thanks for posting this.
I have been astonished at the number of freepers, pundits, and talk-show hosts (including Rush!) who believe what they are being told by the MSM about the Russia/Georgia conflict for (apparently) no other reason than our country’s cold war past with the USSR.
At this point I don’t know who to believe or how much to believe them, but I do know that when it comes to government propaganda and MSM laziness and incompetence, there are always three sides to every coin.
You gotta point there. For instance, wasn't France better of when it was populated by the French? Look at Poland, it is still almost all Polish. Italy - Italians. But then, Ireland is doing better than it has in a long time, and has arguably the strongest economy in Europe. It also has had the largest influx of workers from Poland. So, at least we know in that case, that importing large numbers of Polish people into your country is good for the economy.
Thanks.
I agree with you, although it appears that despite the cease-fire the Russians are still deep inside Gerogia by the thousands, with Lord knows how many tanks and artillery, acting like real thugs - living up to their reputation as the bad guys.
I have corresponded with and read just as convincing stories from the other side. Those stories speak of Ossetians shelling a Gerogian village after the intital cease-fire...which the Georgians then correctly construed as a violation and attacked.
I believe this story for very simple and direct reasons.
1st, the Russians have great interests in maintaining control of the tunnel that exits the Caucasus mountains, and a sea approach into Georgia that is unopposed. They do so with the two seperatist, and they hope to be soon independent provinces. They have supported those movements for just these obvious reasons and not out of care for the people's there.
It is a geopolitical gambit to allow direct and immediate access into Georgia and the Caspian region and its resources.
2nd, the Russians were prepared far too quickly with their supposed "retalitory" actions. Putting together that much armor and troops, and the amphibious and naval operations that soon followed is not accomplished in a day or two. Those things had to be in motion for weeks beforehand.
Yet the Russians were ready to go within hours of the Georgians pushing north into South Ossetia. Clearly, the Russians had this planned well before the Georgians ever attacked.
I have no doubts at this point that the Russians helped and urged the Ossetians to attack, and goaded the Gerogians into coming north precisely so they could use it as a pretext for their military actions. Stories that try and view it as something different or being encouraged by the Russians and used as propoganda.
I also have no doubts because it all happened when it did, with the start of the Olympics. That was not just coincidence either.
People's who put their faith and trust in Putin and his ilk are misguided at best, and complicit with his aims at worst. He is not altruistic, and he is not "protecting" them. He is advancing his own plans for power and using naked aggression to do so.
Luckily, the Georgians held out long enough for the Presidents of Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, and Lithuania to arrive in Tiblisi before the Russians could get theere, and before they could kill the Georgian President which they were trying to do. That was one of the most couragous things I have seen done by a group of national leaders in my lifetime...and it worked.
Coupling that with Washington's strong response and Bush now sending the US military to spearhead humanitarian efforts for the Georgians...and at the same time provide a de facto military shield, has to this point halted the Russina military gambit.
The situation is still tense and a crisis for sure, but I believe now that Georgia will survive a free country.
If the populations of the two porvinces vote to go their own way, unfortunately, because of the immoral debacle we committed in Kosovo, I believe the UN will go along, as will the Russians of course, and Georgia will be deprived of those critical areas for its own defense.
The answer to this will likely be the US and Western Europe seriously upgrading and modernizing Georgia's military, her admission into NATO, and probably US or NATO bases in Georgia to ensure that she is not cut asunder by the Russian capability to at will come through that tunnel and land troops on the shore, all south of the Caucasus.
But make no mistake, the weaponry that the Georgians will utlimately receive in such a scenario, will allow them to do what they could not do this go around...that is target and bring down the tunnel, and target and oppose landing that would otherwise threaten them.
In addition to that, which will work against Putin's designs, there will also be other unintended consequences like the treaty Poland just signed, probably Ukraine's admittance into NATO as well as Ukraine severly restricting the Russian Black Sea fleet use of the base at Sevastapol, and other former satellites much more quickly and solidly being driven into the westen republics camp.
I am willing to bt that the Georgia President wins re-election in a landslide.
See my new site on this issue if you get the chance:
Wow Jeff, you have a site for it!! You are so awesome.
Ireland is still 96% white and 87% Catholic, which is pretty homogenous compared to here.
Poles are 2.5%
Your site is interesting, but lacks complexity in the “Background” section. Further, the critical presumption that Russia had this planned seems based on what you want to believe. Your subsequent portrayals become questionable thereby and by not addressing basic realities.
Russia warned Georgia repeatedly in the weeks preceding the war of harsh response to any remarkable escalation. This alone would have given Russia time for preparation. Further, these problems have been accentuated ever since Saakashvili was elected. His bellicose rhetoric has continued for those four years. His actions were inflammatory, shifting from agreement to attack back to supposed agreement. Given that lack of trust and violation of trust, Russia may well have prepared for longer than weeks.
However, we are left with these stark realities... Georgia agreed to further peace keeping arrangements only hours before the sneak attack in Ossetia. They chose the middle of the night to attack, when civilians were sleeping. They targeted the hospital, University and many residential districts, which were destroyed to the ground. Their peace-keepers turned on Russian peace keepers and killed them. If Georgia had not done this incredible escalation, the Russians wouldn’t have responded... The most glaring reality contradicting your assertions.
Russia responded immediately to the assault by calling an emergency UN session. In that meeting, the US and Britain refused action, or statement based on their objection to denouncing “use of force by Georgia, or South Ossetia.” Remarkably now, the US position is one of denouncing use of force. Thus, eighteen hours after Georgia attacked a sleeping city, Russia then sent its forces into South Ossetia in force.
President Saakashvili’s words for four years disregarded the aspirations of the regions allowed independence since 1992 (in close proximity to the Soviet permitting without total breakdown the several breakaway republics to assert and gain independence.)
The presumptions regarding Russian intent are also questionable by seeing exactly what Russia has done. They could have easily taken the whole of Georgia. Instead, they have not crossed the second mountain range, have not asserted ever that they were going to replace any government. They have focused on particular military targets that posed threats for another such sneak attack. People either do not know, or disregard the fact that the Gori military complex was only ten miles from the Ossetian border. To make the decision to repulse the sneak attack, only a deranged West would assume that Russia should leave a military intact and closely poised to reassert its madness. I suppose this same madness would have Russia re-arm their opponents.
Peripherally, it was not any action, nor word from the West, which convinced Russia to alter any action. In fact, they had publicly stated that their main military objectives were accomplished and they had ended major military action before the French came up with their initial plan to the Russians.
The media coverage from the West has been abominable. The avoidance of reality is shown in its discrediting the human suffering imposed by Georgia. Their rationale includes saying that since only hundreds of injured were at the main hospital (intentionally targeted and shelled by Georgians for hours), then the number of dead was questionable. Logic says that people covered in tons of rubble in completely leveled residential districts don’t simply disappear.
It is noteworthy, that your argument can be used for the Georgians, also. Tongue in cheek... They must have been preparing for a very long time to make a sneak attack on South Ossetia with a fully armed force of artillery and tanks.
Possibly we should consider the twelve year old American girl peacefully sitting in a restaurant with her family at about midnight on the 7th as the major shelling began and her subsequent hiding in a basement for the next day. When she got back to America, she thanked the Russians.
Whatever Russia’s misgivings about having an assertive NATO expanding its military postures all around Russia’s borders, the Russian action later on the 8th wouldn’t have happened if the Georgians hadn’t killed peace keepers and leveled apartments.
I have tried not to do that with my site.
Fact is, those two Provinces are recognized as a part of Georgia's soverign territory, including by Russia. Fact is, there was strife between the two and has been since the early to mid 1990s after the all of the Soviet Union, which evoked at the time much more ethnic cleansing by the seperatists than aything we are seeing today.ything today.
Fact is, it has been the Russians who have exasperated that entire situation ever since...up to and including handing our Russian passports to the citizens of another soverign nation so they can perpetuate their involvement in an area where they shjouldnj't be at all.
Fact is, any look at a map and the geopgraphy of the region tells you why Russia has such interests, and I have news for you, it is not because Putin has any altruism for the people there.
Fact is, the Russians were prepared for this invasion and within hours of the Georgian resuming attacks, implemented it.
Based on your assertions here I would say that the Russians gave warning with a preconceived notions of exactly what would happen because they went through all the logistics of preparing two invasion forces to act out those invasions as soon as theey had the pretext to do so.
They did not do so under any international charter. They did not do so through working with their partners to establish such contentions. They did so completely unilaterally.
Now, if Russian integrity were threatened, I woudl understand it...but in no way shape or form can you put together a scenario that includes Russia itself being threatened.
Finally, I am certainly not saying that Georgia has not made mistakes. There is no doubt in my mind that with the activities in those areas over the last 16 years, that there was some revenge taken.
But an asertion that it arose to national policy (as the Russians have made) is laughable. Now that some independent people have looked at it, they are indicating that Putin's figures are off by ten fold...in other words, Putin's attacks on Gerogia probably killed just as many and therefore by his own calculations he would be a war criminal.
Since he was the invading force, it would come close to sticking to him.
Finally, the Georgians were being shelled initially at the start of the month which kicked things off (and someone was doing that shelling). The cease-fire of Aug 6-7 was broken by more shelling of Georgian villages before they resumed military activity. Then Russia pounced.
Georgia's biugggest mistake was taking the Russian bate IMHO.
That's the time line and you can spin it or make of it what you will. I believe it is clear that the western republics are seeing Russia's gambit here in the correct manner. And that is one where they are the agressor.
Clearly their "peacekeeprs" are a farce because they have such interests and a stake in one of the sides. If peacekeeprs are needed while negotiations are ongoing, they need to be truly independent. Perhaps now they will be.
I believe the people of Georgia see it that way too.
Welcome to FR, I think.
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