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To: Bokababe
Right now Russia's sole power in Europe is not its military, it is that Russia supplies Europe with 40% of its gas and and oil. And Russia has increased its power with Gazprom deals that cross Eastern Europe. We, in turn, have tried to compete with that with the Nabucco oil pipeline that brings Caspian sea oil in via a different route that bypasses Russia. One of those non-Russian routes runs through, guess where? Georgia!!!! And what was one of the first things that Russia took out when it attacked Georgia? That pipeline!

If you know this then why can't you figure out this? :-)

But I have yet to figure out why Georgia would throw itself in front of the Russian bus, for no good reason -- because S. Ossetia and Abkhasia doesn't really mean that much to Georgia, socially, religiously or economically. So why would Georgia subject itself to such punishment for no good reason?

Maybe you should talk to yourself more. Or not.

But this "humanitarian aid" that we are using the US Secretary of Defense and the US Military to deliver(?) has now given us an excuse to plant ourselves right in that main-hub transit neighborhood.

You're kind of overlooking the fact that we were already planted in Georgia BEFORE the Russian invasion, and had things continued as they were going Georgia was going to peacefully plant itself in NATO. We didn't need to plant ourselves there twice when things were already going our way.

This isn't "tinfoil-hat imaginings", is geo-strategic thinking.

Not quite. It's cart-before-horse thinking.

There is more at play here than just a Russian-Georgian border dispute.

That's obvious enough.

The pipeline transitting Georgia is an alternate fuel supply for Europe. The Russians want to control Europe by denying them alternative supplies. And control them they will if they succeed - lil' ol' Saddam Hussein had Europe by the balls for over a decade. Russia will be like Saddam Hussein only Russia won't be giving out bribes, just demands. Russia also wants to protect Iran. When you've got no friends, you have to keep the ones you can, right? So by doing this Russia can kill a lot of birds with just one stone. A conflict in Georgia is like throwing a turd in the Americans' punchbowl- it makes it harder to deal with Iran. It denies the US a part of a carefully constructed ring of willing partners. It jacks around with Turkey and NATO.

One thing that's obvious here- Russia wasn't "provoked" by Georgia, or set up by the US. Why is that obvious? Simple- Russia had all their assets lined up to do this WAY before Georgia made any moves. This operation by the Russians was going to go down one way or another no matter what Georgia did or did not do.

We didn't put Russian troops on Georgia's borders. Russia did.

We didn't cozy up to the Ossetians and have them fire rockets at our ally. Russia did.

We didn't make Russia invade Georgia. The Russians just did what Russians have a history of doing. Instead of winning hearts and minds, Russians jail great minds and put bullet holes in hearts. Instead of building themselves up, they tear everyone else down. Instead of competing, they prefer cheating.

A US presidential press conference, putting the Secretary of Defense on it, sending US military to "deliver humanitarian aid" and sending the Secretary of State to France to discuss it, for a conflict that left "175 Georgians dead"? Something is wrong with this picture!

Nothing's "wrong" with the picture. The move is what it appears to be - a US effort to shield Georgia by stepping between them and Russia and effectively daring Russia to pick on us. We are trying the "human shield" method because at the moment only the Russians, being the aggressors, are prepared to deal with this situation militarily. If we were trying to provoke the Russians from the get go- or had told the Georgians to provoke Russia- we'd have put all our assets in place first instead of the Russians getting to do that solo. The only option we have at the moment, since we were unprepared for this- was to play human shield, or just walk away. The latter we cannot afford to do- the repercussions would go on for decades, if not generations. Since we'd rather not have to kill any Russians and start a larger war, the human shield thing gives Russia a chance to back down gracefully.

There's nothing "wrong" with "dual-use" humanitarian efforts.

91 posted on 08/13/2008 3:58:36 PM PDT by piasa (Attitude Adjustments Offered Here Free of Charge)
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To: piasa

Great post. bttt


93 posted on 08/13/2008 4:06:00 PM PDT by txhurl
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To: piasa
"You're kind of overlooking the fact that we were already planted in Georgia BEFORE the Russian invasion, and had things continued as they were going Georgia was going to peacefully plant itself in NATO. We didn't need to plant ourselves there twice when things were already going our way."

And you are "kind of overlooking the fact" that things were NOT going our way re Georgia and the Ukraine joining NATO. Or sure, Georgia wanted it, but France and Germany shot it down a couple months ago for exactly this reason -- they didn't want to have to go to war with Russia over a stupid border dispute in Georgia.

You do realize that had Georgia been a NATO member right now, we would be at war with Russia, don't you?

You can bitch about "old Europe having no guts" and you would be partially right. But it's also a matter of this being on their continent, not ours -- Europe would suffer the fallout far worse than we would from a war with Russia, including losing 40% of their oil supply, which is why they are staying out of this one as much as possible!

We have been pushing for a confrontation with Russia for a while now, bringing NATO almost to its doorstep, putting in a missile system in Poland and Czech Republic, etc. Now you can argue that this might be "good and necessary", etc to protect Europe from Russia. But let's not pretend that it is anything other than what it is -- cornering and threatening Russia in her own backyard.

99 posted on 08/13/2008 5:40:03 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: piasa

Thanks for that honest analysis...


106 posted on 08/13/2008 8:21:21 PM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Trust in the Lord...vote yer conscience...=...LiveFReeOr Die...)
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