Russia seizes Georgia base, opens second front

AP ^ | Aug 11, 2008 | MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

[Jeff Head]

TBILISI, Georgia — Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base and police stations in the country's west, the Georgian government and a Russian official said.

GEORGIAN FORCES

RUSSIAN FORCES

[death2tyrants]

Your strawman argument is silly.

[Arkinsaw]

There are lots of things that can be done.

1) Immediately bring Ukraine into the NATO fold....tonight.
2) Begin supplying as many weapons as the Georgians and Ukrainians want.
3) Kick Russia out of the G8
4) If we can stop their WTO membership then do it
5) Freeze their assets...I mean it..freeze every Russian asset in the West
6) Immediately plan to expand the missile defense system in Poland 20 fold or more
7) Prohibit Russian travel anywhere in the West...shut off Aeroflot or whatever they have from landing anywhere in the West

I am sure we could think of more if we were serious. But those are more than words.

Trouble is that they require a united front by each and every Western democracy and that will never happen.

If I were Ukraine I would be digging underground lairs and hiding weapons for an upcoming guerilla war.

[Jack Black]

I don’t agree with Ron Paul on many of the specific claims he made about Iraq. I do understand his overall non-interventionist philosophy and see some merit in it.

When discussing the immigration disaster I am not talking about any particular law. I am talking about the piss-poor performance by Bush, who after all the head of the executive branch, in enforcing the border and immigration laws of the USA as they exist. These laws have been flagrently violated and the FedGov under Bush has been largely AWOL on enforcement. (until the last year or two, partially due to the outcry by Conservatives over the issue the McCain bill started).

As for whether the Iraq war was a net plus or minus, you can’t just site the good parts. Yes Saddam, an evil tyrant is gone. (Lots of other evil tyrants remain, though, including the one in Iran. One friend of mine said at the time: we attacked the wrong part of the Axis.)

We also have spent $2 Trillion we don’t have, and we don’t yet know what Iraq will be like in 5 or 10 years.

Maybe it all works out like Bush hopes, and he goes down as a genius. Maybe it all turns to mud and his critics carry the day.

I claim it is too early to say, though I would agree there are many hopeful signs.

BTW: If I thought that Iraq was the reason Bush could not defend the border I would give him a partial pass. I do not. I believe he had all the power, money and laws he needed to bring the flood of illegals down to a trickle. His failure to do so is either a lack of desire or a lack of will, but not a lack of ability.

[Jack Black]

When a six year old cease fire exists, guaranteed by a multilateral peace keeping force, where hostilities have ceased there exists a “state of peace.” or at least relative calm and a prolonged sessation of violence and military hostilities.

When one commences to fire artillery into that zone, lacking any recent specific act to which one is responding that is what I call “starting it”.

For instance, if the South Koreans were to decide that they were no longer happy with the partition and DMZ and started bombing and shelling North Korea tomorrow I would say they are “starting it”. They might have reasons for starting it that I find valid: such as “it should never have been partitioned, our cousins are starving under that mad-man, he is bringing dishonor to the Korean race, all Koreans must liver under democracy, or many others one could imagine.

Regardless of their reasons though, they would be “starting it” if they decided to start shelling.

And that is exactly what the Georgians did. Pretty simple really. Pretty stupid too. “Don’t start a fight you can’t finish” is an old but still useful rule to remember.

[Arkinsaw]

You are absolutely correct we can’t respond.

We can respond. If we do it as a united West and be willing to suffer the pain. We can tell Russia that as long as Georgia's recognized borders are being violated they will have NO ACCESS to any of our markets. None of them. Not Sweden, not Germany, not the US, not Turkey, not Britain, not France. That we will buy NOTHING from them, not even oil or natural gas. That we will seize all assets of the Russian government and freeze all assets of wealthy Russians in our countries. That Ukraine will immediately be enfolded into NATO and reinforced.

There are many ways we can respond that are not military and some of those will be extremely, extremely, painful to Russia and somewhat painful to us.

Unfortunately, the Europeans will never have the backbone to stand united and show Russia just how powerful a unanimous West can be even without a military response.

They will get away with it and Ukraine is next.

[ken21]

angela merkel was wrong.

will europe wake up?

[JSteff]

“And get as many EU weinies involved in order to up the ante to the Russians. “

They will not get involved.

“Get some Jets over Georgia, as they have requested.”

That would be war. Take off from a carrier to carry out operations in support of the Georgians and it is a combatant.

Support Georgia from bases in Europe and that base is also a part of the conflict.

This is a very delicate situation we are in. Unless Europe is involve by self determined agreement we could make it a very rough time for all.

The question is what is their mood in the guts of their governments? Are they in the NATO mood like they were with the Balkans (and Clinton), or still in the anti-Iraq action mood?

Don't forget history always repeats itself. Always. Europe would not even defend Checkozlovocia or Poland before WWII.

They do not care to have to remember that, and will do all they think they can to avoid having to live up to what followed that.

The are still in denial. We tread lightly here.

[E. Cartman]

We can respond. If we do it as a united West and be willing to suffer the pain.

While I applaud your enthusiasm, I have to wonder if you're somehow unfamiliar with our "allies". Face it, we live in a venal, self-serving world, largely devoid of principle and if there's no money to be made by standing up to Russia (Hello to always putting the "market" first), no one will do squat.

[dragnet2]

Thanks for posting these updates JH.

[RobFromGa]

Why did they choose the opening of the Olympics to start this up? (I seem to recall something about laying down weapons during the Olympics— do you think that Russia assumes that this will tie the hands of the civilized nations?)

[Gilbo_3]

...should be given a stinger missile as a going away gift when we airlift em home.

Amen to that Sir, but uncle sug will prolly bill em for the flight and send em out with a WWII K-Rat as a parting gift...Im a bit cynical today about the whole situation with our response so far...

Anyways, Godspeed to those fine warriors, and this American "THANKS the Georgians for their service"...

LFOD...

[Arkinsaw]

While I applaud your enthusiasm, I have to wonder if you're somehow unfamiliar with our "allies". Face it, we live in a venal, self-serving world, largely devoid of principle and if there's no money to be made by standing up to Russia (Hello to always putting the "market" first), no one will do squat.

No, I am under no illusions how this Sudetenland will turn out. Nobody will do anything except wring their hands and worry if their natural gas supply will be interrupted.

Ukraine will be next.

[Radix]

'Getting involved with this on a direct combat standing would be absolutely stupid. The Russians are idiots and i think this will cost them dearly. We should do like we did in the Cold War and stir up trouble for them by provoking the Ukraine, Moldavia and the Balitc Republics. In addition, we should go ahead and level Iran while they are busy."

Terrific post.

[BIGLOOK]

Just heard a simply amazing counter to the situation in Georgia on Fox News ....from Dick Morris no less.

Morris said the US (and NATO) move should be to admit the Ukraine into NATO immediately. His reasoning was that the population of Russia is 140 million and the population of the Ukraine is 50 million. Said it would scare the hell out of the Neo Sovs.

I think we all remember the political hi jinx that took place in the Ukraine a couple years ago. There's no love lost between the two.

[Arkinsaw]

Morris said the US (and NATO) move should be to admit the Ukraine into NATO immediately. His reasoning was that the population of Russia is 140 million and the population of the Ukraine is 50 million. Said it would scare the hell out of the Neo Sovs.

I was thinking that but now that Dick Morris is on board I am having second thoughts.

In any event, the WEST could make life miserable for the neo-CCCP even non-militarily but they are always wobbly.

[BIGLOOK]

In any event, the WEST could make life miserable for the neo-CCCP even non-militarily but they are always wobbly.

Yeah...we could kick them out of the G-8, toss in a few economic sanctions and do a little diplomatic dance but winter is coming and Europe has been reliant on LNG from Russia for heating fuel for some time. The US under the right leadership (elections are coming soon) could do it but the Europeans will have to grow a pair to pressure the Neo Sovs.

[Arkinsaw]

Yeah...we could kick them out of the G-8, toss in a few economic sanctions and do a little diplomatic dance but winter is coming and Europe has been reliant on LNG from Russia for heating fuel for some time. The US under the right leadership (elections are coming soon) could do it but the Europeans will have to grow a pair to pressure the Neo Sovs.

Yep. Sometimes to avoid war and creeping aggression you have to ration natural gas. Which is worse in the long term?

We could do more than just sanctions. We could deny them all access to Western markets, seize or freeze assets of the Russian government and of the wealthy hangers on of the government, ban sales of the equipment they need, ban investment, etc. Those all in combination would do a number on their economy if done in a unified manner.

I suspect a unified Western front that gave a deadline for that privately would have the desired effect. If every Western nation ALL gave the deadline privately I suspect the Russians would declare the sitatuation under control and pull back.

[BOBTHENAILER]

Great catch BIGLOOK. Ukraine admission would be the knife in a very deserving Soviet back, not to mention a very stout one at that.

I refuse to call that obamination of a country, Russia, when the promise of the revolution got perverted into a regression back to the thuggery of the KGB/Stalinist old days/ways.

[goldstategop]

The Russians are throwing the Americans' precedent back in their face. The Americans dismantled Yugoslavia. And the Russians feel they can do the same to Georgia. We're only doing what you did to our ally, to your ally. Its not fun at all when the tables are turned, is it now? There you have it.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[Arkinsaw]

The Russians are throwing the Americans' precedent back in their face. The Americans dismantled Yugoslavia. And the Russians feel they can do the same to Georgia. We're only doing what you did to our ally, to your ally. Its not fun at all when the tables are turned, is it now? There you have it.

You are absolutely right. But Russia should be a little nervous though. Europeans have never gotten a backbone yet but if they were actually to do so Russia could be in more pain than South Ossetia or Abkhazia is worth. Then the revenge wouldn't feel so good. You never know, Europe could some day surprise us all.