Marine sniper defends his actions [Hearing for Sgt John Winnick concludes]

North County Times ^ | July 2, 2008 | MARK WALKER

[djsherin]

I agree, but I also don’t think that most of these stories should be out in the media, and it would be nice to get hear the Bush administration tell the American people to let the military handle it’s own affairs. I just see these headlines of soldiers on trial and I think Bush should come out and say “the military is handling it” and I haven’t heard that. I’m not blaming him, and I’m sorry if I came off that way.

What was your specific duty in the Marines?

[djsherin]

As do I and I hope he is exonerated.

[Girlene]

More reporting from Tony Perry, Los Angeles Times, Accused of manslaughter, Marine says he's eager to return to Iraq Snipped from the article:

......."A cursory investigation after the shooting discovered no bomb and no weapons either on the four men or in their truck. The truck disappeared a day after the June 17, 2007, incident, before Marines could conduct a more thorough search, a point Winnick's defense attorneys have stressed.

Winnick killed one man from several hundred yards away with a rifle shot. Then, as Marines rushed toward the truck, he killed another with a close-in blast from a shotgun as the man was crawling toward a cellphone".......

But Capt. Oliver Dreger, an intelligence officer whose assignment was to oversee Winnick and other snipers, said he believed Winnick acted too quickly and without sufficient information to conclude that the men were showing "hostile intent."

"I wasn't pleased with the judgment exercised by Sgt. Winnick," said Dreger, who order Winnick relieved of duty the day after the incident.

Dreger said that a Marine has to be "pretty damn sure" before firing at a target and has to realize "that decision will be scrutinized by outsiders."

But under tough questioning by Winnick's attorney, Gary Myers, Dreger conceded that there is a subjective element to determining "hostile intent" and "positive identification," phrases contained in the official rules of engagement.

Myers suggested that Dreger, who was questioned as part of the investigation into the 2005 killing of 24 civilians in Haditha, was thinking of his own career by immediately relieving Winnick.

"The first thing you did and your battalion commander did was to get as far away from these Marines as possible," Myers said, an accusation Dreger denied.".......

[jrooney]

My MOS was 7222

[jazusamo]

Thanks, Girl. Sounds like Dreger may have gotten a little testy at some of Gary Myers questions.

[Lancey Howard]

"The first thing you did and your battalion commander did was to get as far away from these Marines as possible," Myers said

Good for Gary Myers!
There seems to have been a real lapse recently in the training of Marine Corps officers as leaders. Genuine Marine officers of old would have given the Marines under their command every last benefit of the doubt.

[Girlene]

Sounds like Dreger may have gotten a little testy at some of Gary Myers questions.

Well, Dreger was the one who made the decision to relieve Sgt Winnick of duty the day after the incident. He seemed more interested in relieving Winnick than whether there was more evidence in the truck (which mysteriously disappeared the same day).

I'd say the civilian attorney, Gary Meyers, got to the heart of the matter.

[jazusamo]

I'd say the civilian attorney, Gary Meyers, got to the heart of the matter.

I'd say you're right and I think Myers put it to him knowing what Col. Folsom was looking for in the testimony. Myers is good!

[RedRover]

Gary Myers and Dan Conway did a tremendous job. Maybe it was overkill, in a sense, because they didn’t do any fancy lawyering. Just got to the heart of the issues, but that’s what it should be all about. Kudos to them both.

[RedRover]

I was hoping to get a copy of Sgt Winnick's unsworn statement, but he just spoke his mind and didn't read from a prepared statement. So we'll have to wait to get a transcript before reading the whole thing.

The defense team didn't make a summation, but they did send the message below that I posted on Defend Our Marines...

Statement from defense attorney, Dan Conway...

"Through four combat deployments, one combat meritorious promotion to corporal, and countless engagements with the enemy, Sgt Winnick earned a reputation as one of the best.

"We're confident that after reviewing the evidence, the Marine Corps will do the right thing and dismiss the charges. Despite all that Sgt Winnick has been through with the uncertainty of the legal process, he loves the Marine Corps and is eager to get back to sharing the wisdom of four deployments with his Marines."

[Girlene]

Gary Myers and Dan Conway did a tremendous job.

I agree totally! And in such a short time. Red, these charges should never have been made against Sgt. Winnick. Here's more from San Diego Union Tribune, Defense presented in killings of 2 Iraqis

--------Pretrial hearing held for Marine By Rick Rogers

CAMP PENDLETON – Murky rules of engagement caused Sgt. John Winnick II and his team of Marine snipers to kill two civilians and wound two others about a year ago in Iraq, his attorneys said yesterday during a hearing at Camp Pendleton.

Winnick, 24, is accused of shooting in haste and ordering his men to do the same. He is charged with voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and failure to obey orders or regulations. If convicted, he could be imprisoned for 40 years and receive a dishonorable discharge.

Four members of the sniper group have received formal reprimands for their actions June 17, 2007, near Lake Tharthar in western Iraq. Winnick, a San Diego native who graduated from The Winston School in Del Mar in 2002, was on his fourth combat tour when the shootings occurred.

On that day, Winnick and five other members of the sniper team staked out a highway intersection where insurgents were known to plant roadside bombs, Sgt. Alex Wazenkewitz, a member of the group, testified yesterday.

At one point, Wazenkewitz said, a car stopped and a man got out and “messed with the ground” before leaving. A short time later, another vehicle stopped on the side of the road opposite from where the first car had parked, he said.

After the second vehicle left, a big rig stopped in the same vicinity. A man came out and appeared to take a satchel from the truck.

“We are thinking: 'This is coordinated. They are probably going to (plant) an improvised explosive device,' ” Wazenkewitz testified.

Winnick shot the man near the truck with his sniper rifle, grabbed a shotgun to lead his team's assault on the big rig and fired more rounds, Wazenkewitz said.

One man died from a shot to the head, a second was shot in the stomach and a third suffered some type of wound, Wazenkewitz testified.

“This (one) guy had like an evil smirk on his face and was kissing his fingers and pointing at us and pointing to the sky. He was taunting us,” Wazenkewitz recalled.

Winnick took notes during the hearing. Friends and six of his family members sat in the front row of the courtroom, while Marines supporting him filled most of the other seats and overflowed into the waiting room.

Lt. Steven Chamales, who led the quick-reaction force that aided Winnick's team, testified that he searched the big rig's cab and the ground around it and found nothing related to bomb-making.

“My concern is that I did not see anything worth shooting over,” Chamales said. “I saw no ordnance. I saw no ammo. I saw no weapons. I saw no digging materials, no homemade explosives.”

No one searched the trailer, which appeared to be full of 2-liter bottles of soda, he said.

Cpl. Justin Governale testified to seeing a wounded man crawling toward a cell phone before Winnick killed him with a shotgun blast. Governale said he thought the man was trying to detonate a bomb.

“As soon as I heard the discharge of the weapon, I felt relieved because I had thought I was going to get blown up. . . . If I was in (Winnick's) shoes, I would have shot, I can tell you that for sure,” Governale said.

Lt. Dominic Corabi, Winnick's platoon commander in Iraq, testified that even senior officers couldn't agree on when a Marine could use deadly force. Corabi said he disregarded the advice of his battalion's executive officer and followed the guidance of the unit's lawyer, who said Marines should use lethal force if they deem it necessary.

He also said Capt. Oliver Dreger once reminded his fellow Marines, “Hey, guys, remember the Marine Corps will eat its young.” Dreger is scheduled to take the stand today.

“The general consensus was that if you took a shot, there was going to be a big investigation,” Corabi testified. “I said (to snipers) to basically 'do your best. Make these decisions as best you can, and I will support you.' ”

Capt. Jeffrey King, who is overseeing Winnick's Article 32 session, will recommend to Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland, the convening authority in the case, whether Winnick should go to trial. --------

[brityank]

There seems to have been a real lapse recently in the training of Marine Corps officers as leaders.

Seems to me that their training is all being changed to followship.

As you've all noted, seems as if Mr. Myers has placed the onus of the mis-application of the ROE and LOAC back where it belongs -- on the Prosecutors, JAG, and the Generals -- and not on the troops in contact in the field. Bravo to Mr. Meyers!

[brityank]

Four members of the sniper group have received formal reprimands for their actions June 17, 2007, near Lake Tharthar in western Iraq. Winnick, a San Diego native who graduated from The Winston School in Del Mar in 2002, was on his fourth combat tour when the shootings occurred.

I hope that Sgt. Winnick and the rest of his team will all go back and formally reject any reprimand or negative mention of this action in their service jackets, it is not reasonable or appropriate to the situation as described in the hearings.

[Marine_Uncle]

This may be a tough call. The reality is this Marine did not know what was in the truck. But then one could say, these guys really where insurgents or some element of the resistance that simply where making dry runs as to what they may have been contemplating to do in the future, and or seeing how the Marines would react to first Iraqi on the road then a truck pulling up etc.. It is a tough call.

[RedRover]

Sgt Winnick was actually offered a summary court martial (with one officer as judge, jury, and exectioner). A summary CM is not nearly so serious and very likely would have resulted in a loss of grade.

Sgt Winnick chose to fight, and this hearing is the result. Like you, I hope the records of all his squadmates are wiped clean.

[jesseam]

War is War. If your men are in danger you take the appropriate action. When I got home from Iraq, my wife saw the Rules of Engagement I was given when you could fire only if fired on. She was pissed!!!

[Semper Fi Mom]

I, also, stand with your conviction of “no charge” - however, the wait for the IO’s report and the decision of Gen. Helland will be an excruciatingly difficult time!

Prayers up for all!

[xzins]

The president, as the commander in chief, is in the chain of command of every member of the military. Therefore, any comment on his part will prejudice a case.

His choices are:

1. Dismiss the charges

2. Keep silent and allow them to go forward.

In the case of Haditha, once the information was clear that the action that day was part of an engagement against the enemy, the president should have dismissed charges.

He should also do the same with the border agents.

[bigheadfred]

I guess that was what I was trying to say but I get a little excited at times.

[xzins]

Genuine Marine officers of old would have given the Marines under their command every last benefit of the doubt.

After our church service tonight, I spoke with a member, an old Marine who pulled embassy duty in Tehran during the Shah's time. He was sickened by this.

He told of one of their Marines on guard duty at night who had a man pop up in a secure area. He was ordered to halt and didn't. His Marine put a hole in the infiltrator, and it was the last infiltrating the man ever did.

My friend said that they had that Marine a set of orders and a carry-on meal the next morning. He was out of country in less than a day.

In short, they protected him.

Today, he'd be up on murder charges because quivering administrators don't know the difference between "leadership" and "management."