Posted on 07/01/2008 10:40:58 AM PDT by wintertime
We must be willing to redefine education. What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens. It was created by bureaucrats and special interests who wanted to control children and teens.
I talked with a young lady the other day – 14-years-old – who loves horses and aims to own stables and teach riding, among other things. She’s been working with horses since she was five. She’s good enough now that she “breaks” new ones and retrains ones facing changes in the use they’re being put to. She knows her stuff.
(snip)
Then there’s her other life – public school. She failed her end-of-year math exam by three points, so she’s going to summer school. She’ll have to pass the test to move on to the next grade. I’ve talked with her. She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra. She’s more accomplished than many adults (even ones who did pass algebra). But she has four more years of school to go, during which time she’ll have to pass endless tests and divert her efforts from what she knows she’ll devote her life to.
(snip) I get many calls a month from parents of teens who simply haven’t managed to fit into the school mold. They’re smart kids, often kids with serious interests they’re prevented from pursuing because so many adults in their lives are running them through the testing/counseling/therapy wringer.
(snip)
In order to redefine education, we will have to engage in some self-liberation, for most of us have a very hard time letting go (I mean really letting go) of the idea that the state knows some secret about education that we don’t and that if we defy their model we just might be sorry.
(snip)
I couldnt’ agree more with your entire post...and...It should be a cardinal sin to waste a child's time.
When considering the structure of future private education we should give up the idea of the Prussian military model, brick and mortar, prison-like school. There are two reasons:
1) Hasn't the successes of homeschooling proved that it is unnatural to treat children like factory widgets, or worse, like prisoners? Children learn best when challenged on their level, and when they are allowed to completely master one level before moving to the next.
2) Brick and mortar schools are expensive! The curriculum and technology today is relatively very inexpensive ( compared to a government school) and excellent in its quality.
The future of private education should be thinking in terms of dame schools, mini-schools, homeschool cooperatives, tutoring centers, and one-room school houses.
There is one thing that **must** be done. We **must** break the government choke hold on team sports. Those wishing to promote private education must also organize sports leagues. Much of the support for government education in my county is based upon parent's desire for their children to have an opportunity to participate in the government sports leagues.
I didn't see your post before I last posted. Yes, I guess an unloaded gun isn't much of a threat of force.
That is very much in line with conservative/libertarian thought. Years ago, I was reluctant to listen to that line of thinking, but eventually I had to admit it was correct: We do pay our taxes (and many parents must send their children to school) under threat of force, and there's always a gun behind it.
Huh?...Have you included me on your ping list after many requests?
Have you refused to post my threads in the past?
This is a lie?
But...I am glad to see that you are reconsidering.
By the way....I am asking **again** for you to include my name on the Public Education Ping List. I would enjoy being notified of your education articles.
I request that when I notify you of the threads that I originate that you ping the others on your list. If you choose not to do this, and explanation of the thread's lack of worth would be interesting to read.
Personally, I don’t have time to scour the internet looking specifically for articles related to the pitfalls and faults of public education services, but that is me.
Someone else may, and more power to them.
Additionally, my watching a ping list is a courtesy to fellow Freepers. Just like I am a visitor in Mr. Robinson’s forum, most of us run ping lists because it is a nice thing to do.
Anyway, back to the original thread, I completely agree that the current state of education is in need of reform, but as posted else-thread about the “Shakir” student, the only education he is going to have any interest in is survival on the street.
Back when I was in school and we were forced to diagram sentences, I would ask my teacher, quite honestly, what point this would serve us in the future and why we had to do it. Of course, I got no direct answer, but I promised myself then that once I became a teacher, no reasonable question along those lines would be ignored or glossed over with the trump hand of being the teacher and I said so.
While I completely understand the child’s disinterest in algebra, it skirts the main point of learning algebra: to learn critical thinking and problem solving skills. My brother is one of the most gifted and talented writers I know, but cannot do algebra; a cousin graduated summa cum laude from college with one ‘C’ in, you guessed it, algebra. (He is a lawyer now).
I agree that education needs overhauling, and many of my colleagues in the profession agree, but there are some things that can’t be helped. Problems understanding mathematics is one of them.
Anyway, that is my rant.:)
Sitting here laughing!
Very good! :)
“Instead of requiring Algebra, Geometry, etc., I’d like to see the same math covered but organized according to: Financial Investments, Real Estate, Business, Building & Construction, etc. If this girl (and many other students) were given examples of how math applies to her life, she might become interested.”
So funny!
In my job working with Special Ed. learning disabled students, I frequently teach “budgeting”...
I can’t tell you how many parents have asked me if I could help their other (non-special ed) child too!
This is an out right lie.
You will not repeat your lies again, or I will report your libelous statements to the moderators.
I tend to believe that homeschooling done by caring, motivated, and reasonably intelligent parents is the best and most natural way to rear and educate a child. BUT....Obviously, for many reasons many parents can not homeschool. These children will need to be institutionalized.
It is possible to get a quality education while institutionalized, however it is difficult to determine how much learning is happening because of the institution or how much is due to the parent and child's "after schooling" efforts. More research needs to be done in this area. My "guess" is that academically successful children are successful due to their "afterschooling", not their due their institutionalization.
There are some highly successful charters ( for example KIPP) that are working wonders but they are essentially recreating in their schools what normal occurs in a functional family.
It isn’t. I am a product of public education, and am relatively successful, well educated, and well adjusted. I graduated public school only 11 years ago — so this isn’t as if I grew up in the 50’s.
Again,....I think this needs to be researched. How much of your success was due to your and your parents' "afterschooling"? Although you may have an opinion about this it would not be unbiased.
Like home-schools, public school can be a mixed bag ... there are bad schools, and good ones.
I surely do agree.
Generally, the schools are as bad or as good as the parents demand. In low income areas, they tend to suck because parents tend not to care — i. e. they are uninvolved.
I contend that schools are "good" or "bad" depending upon the amount of "afterschooling" that is going on at home. Schools like the KIPP schools are essential attempting to recreate in the school what would otherwise be occurring in a normal family that values education.
Because the parents are uninvolved, the kids are poorly civilized, and good teachers won’t teach in a war-zone. Parental involvement necessarily leads to better behaved students, which leads to better teachers, which leads to better educated students.
Again....
I contend that schools are "good" or "bad" depending upon the amount of "afterschooling" that is going on at home. Schools like the KIPP schools are essential attempting to recreate in the school what would otherwise be occurring in a normal family that values education.
However, there are public schools with involved parents, good teachers, and exceptionally well educated and well behaved children. For instance, the schools in suburban Houston are quite good.
Again....I contend that schools are "good" or "bad" depending upon the amount of "afterschooling" that is going on at home. Schools like the KIPP schools are essential attempting to recreate in the school what would otherwise be occurring in a normal family that values education.
Home-schools can be bad as well. I’ve heard of home-schools where the parents were hippies and took their kids out of public school because it was indoctrinating their kids with authoritarianism and imperialism. The school was set up as some kind of commune ... and the kids were dumb as bricks.
The stats show that homeschoolers far out shine those who are institutionalized for their education. Of course there is always be a bell curve in homeschooling too. Someone will be on the left side of the curve.
Ultimately, its all about parenting.
I wholehearted agree!
If there is a great institutional school, there is likely a **ton** of afterschooling going on! Who takes the credit? The teachers and principals of course! :)
Congratulations to you and your child. Impressive.
Thank you....But...By homeschooling standards my children's achievements are not unusual. They didn't win any national championships. They are not on the New York Times best seller list. They are making millions in sports. They are normally bright children. It is merely that by not be institutionalized , and by being thoughtfully homeschooled, they developed **normally**. It is the institutionalized child who is too often artificially delayed educationally and socially.
Very sweet!
The thing is, what was public education designed to do in the first place? The truth is, it was not designed to create intelligent people. This is especially true with the case of high school. Speaking for myself, I have needed nothing that I studied in high school, yet four years of my life were taken away from me because the law said I had to attend it.
The original intent of public schools were to create semi-skilled, emotionally & intellectually dependent people with a high tolerance for mine-deadening, repetitive work that involves a lot of sitting or standing in one place. All of the structures in place (the bells, the rigid time blocks, the dull, repetitive tasks, the boring schoolbooks, the endless waiting for permission, be it from teachers or bells) were designed for that specific purpose. Reforming it is like trying to reform a brothel or a concentration camp.
There is a saying that a fish rots from the head down. Well, public education is a gigantic, rotting fish, and it always has been, and the nation’s young people are gagging on it. It’s time to chuck it.
You were removed from our ping list after being warned, due to your repeated posts insulting public school teachers and due to your penchant for posting the same thing on every thread regardless of content, which had generated many complaints among those who wanted an intellectual discussion.
When and if you change that behavior, we'll be glad to put you back on the ping list.
Have you refused to post my threads in the past? This is a lie?
Again, threads are pinged based on content and our awareness of them, not based on who posted them.
By the way, I became aware of this thread because I when I checked my "pings" I had received one from you and one from SoftballMominVA...
I request that when I notify you of the threads that I originate that you ping the others on your list. If you choose not to do this, and explanation of the thread's lack of worth would be interesting to read.
I'll refer you back to the posting guidelines for this ping list. I think you're bright enough to discern whether or not a thread qualifies. If you don't get an immediate ping for a qualifying thread, it may mean we're not online.
I will be getting my normal paycheck for teaching the classes, nothing extra for teaching it as a College dual enrollment.
In addition for me to teach the classes I have to take them first. They cost 724 dollars each, my district reimburses me 500 dollars, each if I take them in separate years.
That means that I will be paying almost 250 dollars to not receive any additional compensation.
In addition our district pays all but 50 dollars tuition for every student that takes the course.
The reason that the kids have to pay the 50 dollars is so that they will have some ownership. placing a cost on it allows the students to see worth in it and hopefully they will take it more seriously.
Now if you want to say that my paying to take a course that I will not receive extra compensation for makes me a hypocrite knock yourself out.
Excellent post! My feelings exactly!
Gee! I think I will simply let your words speak for you.
I will bookmark this post and include with an explanation of my ping list.
Certainly would, if any homeschooler cared to complain that you're offended that you imply that parents who care to provide the very best for their children, send them to you.
I have recieved letters of commendation from superiors, letters of compliment from parents and been nominated for "Who's who in education" twice, My Masters GPA was a 3.96, I scored the highest ever on my Vocational education certification exam.
Yeah I think I can safely say that I am one of the best.
Except when it's not . . . . . .
How does one explain me? My parents actively discouraged me from going to college and could have cared less about how any of us did in school as long as we did our chores. Not only that, I suffered various means of abuse that are not appropriate for discussion.
It was only at school and in books that I found peace - even though family members would yank books out of my hands and laugh at me for reading the same ones over and over. Why? I only had 4 - Heidi, Little Women, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, and the Wizard of Oz. All books given to me by the people I adored more than anyone - teachers. I worshiped them because they were kind to a clumsy, ugly little duckling who just wanted to be noticed. I left home at 17 and never returned for more than a few days at a time. I stayed at college over the summers and if anyone at home cared, I never heard about it.
So, there you have it, it was only at school where I felt kindness, even though the schools were far from perfect. I still remembered being bullied in middle school and ostracized at times in high school, but I came to expect it. It was until I met my husband that I stepped on the path to healing.
So, in my case, it wasn't about parenting, it was about teachers - teachers that were more or less paid to like me. Good thing isn't it?
Actually, there is a great deal of research that shows that children who have involved parents, children whose parents converse with them, children whose parents read to them, children in families with good educations and extensive vocabularies, and children whose parents expose them to different activities -- these children do much better in school.
It's not new, and it's not confined to the United States. This is true for all cultures, and in countries in North America, South America, Europe, and Asia.
Research has also shown that children in middle and upper class families tend to have these advantages, and children in lower class families tend not to have these advantages (although there are obviously exceptions throughout the spectrum).
The question is whether lower-class children do not get these advantages because they and their parents tend to be of lower intelligence (which would explain why they end up at the bottom of the spectrum), or whether they just have not developed the knowledge and habits of the middle and upper class, without which they have little chance of succeeding.
If it is the former, there is little chance of changing their situation, and the American dream of upward mobility is, for most, as elusive as the mythical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. However, if it is the latter, there is a chance that education, properly done, could break the cycle of poverty and allow some children to escape.
Which do you believe?
In post #95 wintertime says she mentioned bullets.
And that is the first time she mentioned that to me.
Ole Wintertime likes to change her story on a regular basis. First it's three kids, then it's four. First it's guns, then it's bullets.
Has not yet docuemented the use of force, she relies on others to do HER homework, then it turns out her claims are BS if you take the the time to read them.
When I was in NYC decades ago, when you graduated 8th grade, you had a choice between going to an academic high school which would prepare you for college, or a technical high school which would prepare you for a trade.
One that is still around is Automotive High School. When you graduate Automotive, you get a HS diploma plus your mechanic's certification
I had to take Algebra, Geometry, and Trig in High School. I swore up and down that I would never need a single one of them. After Machinist School I walked into my first job (as a Machinist), my boss handed me a steel plate that had three reference holes stamped into it.
I had to use the Algebra to calculate the correct feed and speed to bore the holes for a bolt pattern.
I had to use the Geometry to lay out he holes according to the blueprint.
I then had to use the Trig to determine the distance between the holes to measure them with my calipers
The point is that you have no idea what you are going to use as adult so you need a broad based liberal education combined with hands on technical classes to make you well rounded.
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