Chief of staff: Army reviewing complaints over bullets

breitbart.com ^ | 05-29-08 | Jay Reeves

[em2vn]

The military is reviewing soldiers' complaints that their standard ammunition isn't powerful enough for the type of fighting required in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army's highest-ranking officer said Thursday. But Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, said it was too soon to say whether the Pentagon will switch. Current and former soldiers interviewed by The Associated Press said the military's M855 rifle rounds are not powerful enough for close-in fighting in cities and towns in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Speaking with reporters at a conference in Huntsville, Casey said leaders are constantly soliciting feedback from soldiers in the field and were aware of complaints about the M855 ammunition.

[Tailback]

It’s not available in a production rifle. The round was developed for the European 300 meter rifle competitions. It’s ballistics are comparable to the 6.5 Grendal, or the 6.5mm XC by David Tubb.

These are highly accurate OTC (over the course) rounds that have balanced the accuracy, recoil, and barrel life requirements for competetive shooters competing from 200-600yards.

Basically, ballistics wise, you probably can’t get much better for a human target than the 6.5mm. What needs to be balanced is the recoil, barrel life, reliability of feeding, and weight of ammunition for a combat load. My opinion is that the 6.5X47 Lapua is the sweet spot that fits those criteria.

But I’m a nobody with no brass on my collar and no connections in procurement.

The only other caliber that interests me is the 6.25mm round that Archy posted about. There’s limited data on that, but it really looked interesting. With modern bullet design and powders you could probably get really fantastic results out of it.

[TFMcGuire]

The larger caliber is what I am driving at as well. I know that the 5.56 can be devastating. A 9mm can also be devastating with hydroshoks, but I would prefer to carry a .45 if I were daily exposed to danger.

[TFMcGuire]

“There will never be a perfect gun or, perfect cartridge.”

Most of them are pretty good and beat the alternative of being an unarmed victim every time!

:)

[Shooter 2.5]

Just use any search engine for:
Mossberg 500 shotgun
Remington 870 shotgun

Do the research online and then go to any reputable independent gunshop in your area for your purchase.

[Polynikes]

“I always thought the M16 tumbled also but maybe it has too much velocity for close quarters combat.”

I also heard the early versions of the M16 had a tendency to tumble the 5.56 but that was attributed to the rate of twist being relatively low. Later versions had a higher rate of twist to facilitate better penetration thru brush and jungle foliage thereby having the side effect of being more likely to drill thru a human with less energy transfered unless a major system like the head or spine was hit. That is what I have read and I don't know if that is accurate

[Vietnam Vet From New Mexico]

I have heard of 2 complaints.

We were one of the first basic training classes at Fort Knox to train with the M14. I can't remember the name of the course, but it involved trying to spot a sniper, first when he was motionless, then when he moved, then when he fired a (blank) shot. The M14 produced so little flash and smoke that almost nobody could spot him until he stood up and waved.

The second complaint, which I can't vouch for personally since we all had semi-auto versions, was that if you fired an M14 on full auto, you had better be shooting at troops 8-12 feet tall.

I went to Nam in 65 with the M14 and never had a problem with it. There was always clouds of dust, or ankle deep mud, never heard of anyone having a jam.

[wastedyears]

I’d choose the BFG too.

I think Halo 3 is the most entrancing piece of work I’ve ever come across.

The track “Never Forget” is so utterly depressing.

[wastedyears]

Those are legal?

[Prole]

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Every Soldier, Marine, Sailor and Airman should be armed with 7.62 NATO if they set foot in Iraq or Afghanistan. They all deserve the best weapons that the US taxpayer can buy:

Troops should ditch the cold-war anachronisms that are the M16A2/M4 and 5.56 Ball altogether.

That weapon system was never designed to destroy the enemy in 1-2 shots.

It's a joke to use that high maintenance POS in desert conditions, and it's also a joke to expect it to destroy the enemy.

Anyone who read "Black Hawk Down" knows that one of the chief problems in the Rangers' AAR was their complete lack of effective firepower on the ground to effectively kill/destroy the enemy in 1-2 shots. Every squad should have no less than 7.62 NATO at his side. The only exception being the M249 SAW, which is where all that excess 5.56 garbage can go.

American Soldiers and Marines should also be firing .357 SIG in their pistols with Remington JHP Golden Sabers through compensated barrels to reduce recoil on the trooper's hands.

American NAPALM and flamethrowers also belong on today's battlefield. The dirty Muslim b@stards use fire and explosives toward our troops, so it's high time we took the gloves off and truly gave them something to fear.

A fireball from a flamethrower will motivate the Muslim b@stards to drop their AK's really quick when they see their pals justifiably soaked in burning jellied gasoline.

[Prole]

We should talk more often.

I own a Mossberg 500 Pursuader and a Remington 870 with extended magazine tube.

While I love the 7 shot capacity of the Remington, I do love the short and sweet barrel of the six-shootin' Pursuader.

[clee1]

Oh yeah.

I love mine; but I also have a 9-shot Mossberg too.

[wastedyears]

Prole, that picture looks like a screenshot from a video game.

[JDoutrider]

marker

[Shooter 2.5]

I extended the tang on the elevator of my Mossberg 500 and use Aquila Minishells. That little Mossberg now holds ten rounds of buckshot. I have to get around to modifying the longer Mossberg that I have. It should hold around fourteen shots.

For some reason the pressure elevates in the Aquila birdshot. The pressure expands the head of the shell until there isn’t a rim to extract. I think it might be a problem with a too large out of spec chamber.

[Shooter 2.5]

Marker? What’s that?

If you need to bookmark the thread just change the address to yourself. Thanks.

[Zuben Elgenubi]

Always a compliment to the LEOs but I like to pull their chains because of their sweet union deals.

[Zuben Elgenubi]

Thank you for your very comprehensive response. I’ve learned a lot on this thread, mostly that other FReepers know a lot more than me and are willing to share. Sincere thanks, tailback.

[xsrdx]

I also am appalled that a finicky platform like the AR 15 would have continued so long in military service. Countless Americans have been lost or captured because of the failure of these pieces..

Finicky? How many rounds have you put through one?

It remains in service WORLDWIDE as the most successful western rifle IN HISTORY because it's more accurate and reliable than competing platforms.

Your second comment is propaganda completely absent any basis in fact.

The rifle has evolved since 1966 - unlike it's detractors.

Speed wins gunfights. Inside about 500 yards, 556mm will always score better hits quicker than 762mm in equally capable hands, and the guy that hits first wins about 98% of the time.

But we'll see how the "bigger is always better" fantasy plays out when SOCOM fields the .30cal SCAR.

Maybe all those operators will flock to it like bees to honey... or maybe not.

[xsrdx]

You'll also notice we don't hear SQUAT from the USMC about lethality issues. They use the 20" M16A4, electing not to adopt the carbine.

Not surprisingly, the 14.5" M4 has less velocity - and thus somewhat reduced lethality - when compared to the 20" gun.

Pretending 556mm is the problem ignores the fact that it works far better in the 20" USMC application.

But don't let that stop the M16 bashing.

[TFMcGuire]

Hate that word, “bash.” Lefties use it to beg out of an argument and to portray the opposition in the worst light possible.

Of course a longer barrel can give added velocity when the right propellant is used.

You’ll not convince me that the AR-15 is a reliable enough platform nor that the 5.56 is a heavy enough bullet. I have

There are legitimate issues with the caliber and the platform.

The Romans had an expression, “Gustibus non disputandum.”