Posted on 05/29/2008 5:14:19 PM PDT by em2vn
The military is reviewing soldiers' complaints that their standard ammunition isn't powerful enough for the type of fighting required in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army's highest-ranking officer said Thursday. But Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, said it was too soon to say whether the Pentagon will switch. Current and former soldiers interviewed by The Associated Press said the military's M855 rifle rounds are not powerful enough for close-in fighting in cities and towns in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Speaking with reporters at a conference in Huntsville, Casey said leaders are constantly soliciting feedback from soldiers in the field and were aware of complaints about the M855 ammunition.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
I thought we just had a story posted here saying they were too powerful, which is it?
Too many people watch Hollywood movies and expect unrealistic performance from firearms. The best way to increase ballistic performance is to shoot the SOB again.
M193: Defined by: Mil-C-9963F
55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,165 (q 40 fps) from a 20” barrel @ 78 feet from the muzzle. Accuracy: maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (~3 MOA). “Statistically average” M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition should have 1:12 twist or faster. M193 is barely stabilized with 1:14 at ambient temperatures and will not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing.
M855: Defined in MIL-C-63989
NATO specifications for M855 Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,000 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20” barrel @ 78 feet from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2’s muzzle is 3,100 fps. Accuracy: maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Because the steel penetrator increases the length and changes the weight distribution of the SS-109 bullet, it is suitable for use only in barrels with a twist of one turn in nine inches or faster. 1:10 twist will barely stabilize this round and not below zero degrees F.
M193: 55gr FMJBT Ball, plain tip.
This cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets from 5.56×45mm weapons with a 1-in-12-inch (1:12) or faster rifling twist rate (M16 family rifles and other compatible systems). Its ballistic coefficient is typically .243
M855: 62gr FMJBT Ball, green-painted tip.
This cartridge is intended for use against personnel, unarmored and light armored targets from 5.56×45mm weapons with a 1-in-10-inch (1:10) or faster rifling twist (Machine guns: M249 Minimi; Rifles: M16A2 and other compatible systems). The M855 cartridge is based on the FN-designed SS-109 bullet, and has a gilding metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof. It was adopted by NATO in 1980 as the standard small arms ammunition for NATO forces. Its ballistic coefficient is typically 304.
I’ll take a Remington 6.8mm SPC.
There was a recent article that said a few soldiers were getting and using the old M14, and saying wonderful things about it. Bigger round, more stopping power, etc.
I am not a gun person, so I don’t know much, but I have never heard a word of complaint about the M14, while bitches about the M16 and its variations could fill a book.
Very nice choice; no complaint here.
The 5.56 round should never have seen the light of day as a military cartridge.
The problem is the actuall bullet being used. It's an FMJ design meaning that much of its power is wasted by passing straight through the target.
If soft point hunting type bullets or hollow points were used, performance on the bad guys would be much improved IMO.
Sadly, those useful tools are forbidden to our troops.
L
The Russians (5.45mm), Chinese (5.8mm), and Israelis (5.56mm) all prefer the sub 6mm round.
Tell you the truth, Ronin, the greatest weapons were fabricated. Started out taking C02 cartridges and mashing match-heads as propellent (these projectiles will easily breach concrete brick) and graduated to fertilizer/diesel deliveries, ala Oklahoma City. The difference between me and Timothy McVay is that I had a Marine for a father. Blowing things up around the farm was really ok and encouraged (we never had a problem with tree trunks) but to kill civilians was just something no one ever thought about, until after a death happened and then you said, "why the heck was the stupid SOB in the kill zone." LOL.
Things have really changed and it's the responsibility that has changed.
John
6.5X47 Lapua is the ultimate replacement for the 5.56mm
IMHO of course.
An FPS may boast a variety of original weaponry with some fairly creative names, but when it comes right down to it, there are effectively less than twenty different weapons in every single FPS game ever made (note that this also applies to other FPS-like genres:)
* Melee: Not a "gun" but present among your arsenal, types include martial arts, knifes, Crowbars or random implements, regularly used to break stuff without useing ammo, may be useful for sneak attacks.
* Pistol: Weak beginning weapon with plentiful (sometimes unlimited) ammo. Sometimes has a larger, more useful counterpart that's usually called Magnum or revolver, and functions as a dinky Marksman Gun.
* Shotgun: Deals a lot of damage up close, useless at long range (with a few exceptions - the first Halo game in particular), slow to reload (although it almost always lets you "top off" its ammo, even in games without One Bullet Clips). Even cooler when cut down to size.
o Flak Cannon: An Unreal series variation that fires shards of molten shrapnel in primary and a single shell that explodes into submunitions upon impact in secondary.
* Automatic: Shoots fast and has lots of ammo. While they range in size from tiny SMGs through assault rifles to hulking machineguns, they tend to be less accurate than a pistol and do less damage per slug no matter how large they are.
o Assault rifles are by far the most likely weapon to have an underslung accessory, usually a grenade launcher; individual shots usually pack a decent punch.
o Minigun: This completely unrealistic rotary machinegun is typically man-portable and pours out a torrent of lead, gobbling down ammo by the belt. The immense firing rate (2-4 thousand RPM) and electrical requirements of these weapons are almost never portrayed accurately. Also known as a gatling gun or chaingun.
* Sniper Rifle: A powerful rifle that needs careful aiming, but can kill from a distance. Usually has a scope and/or a Laser Sight. Also tends to have limited ammo available.
o Marksman Gun: While not as powerful as a sniper rifle (though it usually has a simple scope) or rapidfire as the automatic, this selective fire gun has enough punch to kill in 1-3 headshots and groups tight enough to land them all in skilled hands, while its firing rate and mag size allow many consecutive kills. Examples are Red Faction's precision rifle, RtCW's FG-42, Day Of Defeat's H&K G3, Counter Strike's SIG SG 550, and several Halo weapons (battle rifle, carbine, and arguably H1's pistol.)
* Grenade: A thrown weapon that bounces off walls and explodes, either on a timer or on direct contact with enemies, grenades are also the most likely weapon to have silly side-effects (fire, gas, flashbang, cryo, EMP, etc…). Timed 'nades can often be “cooked” for better timing, sometimes used in conjunction with a grenade launcher.
o Mines: A variation on grenades that can be dropped or placed and will explode when an enemy comes near. An alternative are remote mines, in which the player triggers the explosion via a handheld detonator; or a timed mine which automatically detonates after a specified time. A hybrid of grenades and mines are “sticky” grenades.
* Flamethrower: A medium-range weapon that slowly kills foes by lighting them on fire. While Real Life military flamethrowers operate more like pneumatic squirtguns that can propel an arcing stream of gluey napalm over 120 feet away, they are typically portrayed as atomizers that jet out a cloud of burning aerosol for about 30 feet (this isn't their fault though, since they're just imitating Hollywood).
* Rocket Launcher: A powerful weapon with limited ammunition. In most cases, it's basically a more accurate version of the Grenade, exploding on contact with solid surfaces or enemies.
o Homing Rocket: A version of the rocket launcher with lock-on ability, sometimes useless against anything but vehicles.
* Energy Gun: Rapidfire, can be charged for a more powerful effect. Alternately, may be a cosmetic variation of one of the above.
* Knife: Melee weapon used as a last resort. Sometimes, this is just a punch, kick and/or swipe with another weapon's butt, and an actual blade is upgraded to Chainsaw status. Like many newer games, Return to Castle Wolfenstein featured a knife that while typically useless, was a one-shot kill if you could get up behind an enemy without their noticing you.
o Chainsaw: Melee weapon of outstanding power and coolness, but actual usefulness varies from game to game. While an actual chainsaw is the original, any melee weapon that's designed to compete with the rest of one's arsenal (even if it's your only one) fits the definition.
* Crossbow: Yes, a crossbow. In modern settings. Often justified in a number of ways- they could be quieter than standard guns (seen in Medal of Honor,) able to fire a variety of different bolts such as non-lethal (Syphon Filter 2's crossbow put baddies to sleep, as long you don't aim for the head) or elemental (Bioshock) ones, or they could be more precise than guns Half Life 2's crossbow was the game's only long-range weapon (yes, a sniper crossbow) which fired glowing orange bolts that pinned bad guys to the wall. Also, you will almost never be able to recover ammo, and you have an abnormally high chance of wielding preposterously rare repeating crossbows.
o To be fair, the Half-Life 2 crossbow bolts were bright orange because they were heated or charged by a battery under the main "barrel", hence the electrical sounding zap/thunk when a new bolt (close observation reveals that the "bolts" are actually a length of rebar rather than proper bolts) was placed in the firing groove. The entire thing was apparently made out of odds and ends of scrap and wound itself as well.
* BFG: Extremely slow, and chews up a lot of ammo (or has very little ammo to begin with), but annihilates everybody in the room.
* Gimmicky Weapon: Something peculiar such as Unreal's translocator and link gun, Doom 3's Soul Cube, Portal's portal gun, Half Life 2's gravity gun, Team Fortress 2's Medigun and countless Grappling Hook Pistols. Often helps in puzzle solving, sometimes to the extent of being a Magic Tool.
o Taken to the extreme in Portal, where the entire game revolved around the titular weapon and its use in puzzle-solving.
Some games may try to spice things up by adding a few others, which will usually be modified versions of one of the above. Alternatively, they'll try to come off as original by giving futuristic names to some of the weapons, like calling the Flamethrower a "Thermal Destroyer" or the pistol a "Blaster" - but when it comes right down to it, it's really all the same.
In the wake of Doom, almost every FPS had a shotgun or shotgun equivalent with a cool reload animation that was basically the standard weapon for most players. These days, however, shotguns are generally treated as specialist items that should only be used for close-up attacks on soft targets, since the pellets (shotguns almost never use slugs in computer games) spread out over much wider distances than they would in reality.
Based on this analysis, I'd go with the BFG. ;-)
I want to get a “street sweeper” Shotgun, like a 10 or 12 gauge semi, short barrel. I want to see who is screwing around with me before I let the last chambre loose. Any suggestioins? I already have the 00 shot for both gauges but need the delivery system.
TFM...I don't want to sound contentious because that is not my intent. However, I've carried both the full size M16A1/A2 and the M4 and can tell you that out of both platforms there are a whole bunch of people around the world who are no longer breathing air because of the M193/M855.
I do however think we need to move to a larger caliber while retaining the compactness of the M4...say 6.8 SPC round. It's that, or, we need to have the civilian and military command leadership authorize hollow point ammo for the current platform. The reason I think this should be OK is because the a$$hole “insurgents” in Iraq, and the “Talibunnies” in Afghanistan are NOT soldiers —they're terrorists and/or criminals and the Hague Conventions dictating FMJ ammo should not apply to these low lives...just my $0.02...
Oh, I also have some pretty nice surprises too.
As an Air Force officer, I worked on really cool defoliants (in this case concentrated herbicides like 2,4-D and 2.4-5T)
Acetylene plus 02 is especial also and can be gleaned from standard blow torch tanks. Nice blast but no knock-down effect as compared to nitro/diesel, imo.
Light torch, adjust to neutral flame. Quench in bucket of water. Fill trash bag. Insert cannon fuse. Secure with duct tape. Light fuse. Get far away and cover ears. Watch pretty plastic confetti rain.
This is something I knew long ago and you have shaken my memory. When a memory is shaken in a person of my age, it's like an orgasm. Thank you, Perdogg for the effect.
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