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Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids 3 minutes ago
AP via Yahoo ^ | 5/22/08

Posted on 05/22/2008 10:46:31 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A state appellate court has ruled that child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect's ranch.

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were "legally and factually insufficient" under Texas law. They did not immediately order the return of the children.

Child welfare officials removed the children on the grounds that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and trained boys to become future perpetrators.

The appellate court ruled the chaotic hearing held last month did not demonstrate the children were in any immediate danger, the only measure of taking children from their homes without court proceedings.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: betterthancrispy; biggovernment; constitution; cpswatch; cultists; donutwatch; duplicate; fascism; feminism; firstamendment; flds; freedomofreligion; governmentnazis; jeffs; kidnapping; longdresses; mobrule; molesters; mormon; patriarchy; polygamy; property; ruling; statistapologists
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To: driftdiver

CPS can be arrogant but they do have a job to do. This wasn’t decided by one disfunctional case worker though. People in high places had to have looked over and gave opinions during those two days. Let’s just wait and see how this works out.


1,001 posted on 05/23/2008 7:54:24 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: driftdiver

I haven’t seen that yet.

What I have seen is a concerted effort on the part of Texas communities, especially those surrounding the YFZ Ranch, to oust the FLDS.

This came from searching the web for articles on FLDS prior to the ‘raid’.

The man who has a website that contains a plethora of Aerial Shots of the ranch, also flies over other ‘cult’ locations and photographs them. He has a campaign going to oust all these ‘cults’.

Over the four years since the FLDS moved in, there was a website established, and townhall meetings held, where efforts were being made to ‘find out what was really going on’ inside those ‘strange’ and ‘isolated’ communities.

Carolyn Jessop heard of the efforts to ‘uncover’ the FLDS, so she jumped on a plane and went to Texas to help.

The ‘neighbor’ of the YFZ Ranch filed a lawsuit against the FLDS for backing up waste water on his land.

Texans were ‘suspicious’ of these strangers, and where they got all the money to build the entire compound.

Jeffs and his crew did lie to the landowners when asked what the land was going to be used for. Jeff’s ‘buyer’ said it was for a ‘hunting lodge’.

All these details need to be factored in to understand the way in which the ‘raid’ came to fruition.


1,002 posted on 05/23/2008 7:55:28 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (I reserve the right to misinterpret the comments of any and all pesters)
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To: driftdiver

That’s interesting. Can’t you post the link?


1,003 posted on 05/23/2008 7:55:38 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Peter Libra
The jury is still out.

Do you know something that the rest of us don't? Has the State appealed the ruling? 9 days and counting.

If the CPS appeal and lose, they will have established a precedent and lose a lot of power, permanently. I don't think that they will take the appeal lightly. Generally when an agency like the CPS appeals a case they like to have a very good case. This is not a good case for them to appeal, important certainly, but dangerous.

Did it ever occur to you that this might be a set up? The Church sends a handpicked group of well funded followers and instructs them to rigorously follow the law, knowing that the State is going to do something? The State seems to be down to 5 women who even by its standards appear to be legal. If I was an attorney for the CPS I wouldn't dare take this case forward, unless I had damning evidence nailed down. The CPS track record is not stellar, to put it mildly.

1,004 posted on 05/23/2008 8:09:16 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: CindyDawg
CPS can be arrogant but they do have a job to do. This wasn’t decided by one disfunctional case worker though. People in high places had to have looked over and gave opinions during those two days. Let’s just wait and see how this works out.

Government agents do have a job to do. Most do them conscientiously and well, and deserve our thanks.

That being said:
Liberty, the greatest of all earthly blessings - give us that precious jewel, and you may take every things else! Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. –Patrick Henry

It is part of the job of public official to be viewed suspiciously by the citizenry....because its part of the job of the citizenry to view suspiciously. Our founding fathers insisted on it.
1,005 posted on 05/23/2008 8:11:29 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: UCANSEE2

“Jeffs and his crew did lie to the landowners when asked what the land was going to be used for. Jeff’s ‘buyer’ said it was for a ‘hunting lodge’.”

I can’t imagine that a buyer is required to tell the seller what he is going to do with his purchase.


1,006 posted on 05/23/2008 8:13:01 AM PDT by patton (cuiquam in sua arte credendum)
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To: Arkinsaw

Which most of us, including me... do a good job of... lol


1,007 posted on 05/23/2008 8:15:03 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: LeGrande; commonguymd

” What do you mean?”

Yes. If you are going to say something, speak up.

Or do you have to go behind closed doors to commit your activities?


1,008 posted on 05/23/2008 8:18:38 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (I reserve the right to misinterpret the comments of any and all pesters)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Yes. I have been told that if I oppose any action by the State of Texas in this matter I support child rape. What a crock.


1,009 posted on 05/23/2008 8:21:59 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!)
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To: tobyhill
Who has been charged and did the State know the call was fake before petitioning for the warrant?

The authorities actions during the raid would seem to indicate that those serving it though the call was genuine.

However, until the warrant is challenged in court we aren't likely to hear if any significant evidence that it might not be genuine was withheld from the judge that issued the warrant.

I haven't heard any evidence indicating that they would KNOW it was fake. There's always going to be some question regarding the credibility of any anonymous call. It's not really a matter of them knowing if it was genuine or fake, the really didn't have any way to be sure one way or the other. The question was did their body of evidence produce probable cause to search.

I will bet no one gets charged because it will be proved that the state knew the call was bogus before petitioning the judge.

Well, the caller didn't make a false report directly to the police, so I'm not sure what criminal charges might be brought against her. I'm not saying there isn't something they can charge her with, I'm just saying I don't know what it would likely be. She's likely to face a lawsuit from the FLDS.

It's pretty hard for the state to actually know the call was bogus. They couldn't get the shelter's phone records, because I can't believe a judge would give them a warrant to attain until after the call had turned out to be bogus.

They did call the Dale Barlow that they knew of and question him, but Barlow is a common name in the FLDS, so while questioning him might have helped confirm the credibility of the call, his denial of involvement doesn't really make it less credible.

All Suspects Are Innocent Until Proved Otherwise In A Court Of Law!

Definitely. In this particular case, no one has even been charged with a crime yet. Custody cases are civil actions, not criminal ones. The judge is to represent the interests of the child, in accordance with the law. The court's actions are also supposed to be taken in accordance with the law.

In this case, the appeals court has ruled that the law was not correctly followed, because some of the findings of fact were invalid, and the court had other options that to take the children in the majority of the cases.

1,010 posted on 05/23/2008 8:22:11 AM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: patton

“I can’t imagine that a buyer is required to tell the seller what he is going to do with his purchase.”

If you are a seller, don’t you have the right to ask?
And to decide if you want to sell to that person or not?


1,011 posted on 05/23/2008 8:23:06 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (I reserve the right to misinterpret the comments of any and all pesters)
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To: familyop
Hmmm...choices, choices...better in the custody of a weird cult or custody of the State? Which choice would lead to higher crime rates against/by the kids? ...teen pregnancies, abortions, drugs, poverty,...? A weird cult would probably be safer.

As most of the "husbands" were in their 20's (not in their 50's or 90's as some here keep spouting) I think that, with a gun to my head, I'd probably choose this cult over CPS for my own daughter.

The outcome is the reason. In the cult my daughter would end up "married" young, possibly with "sister-wives". She's have support for herself and her children. She'd be raised with 18th Century values, dress modestly and devote herself to her family with tons of community support. She'd have many women around to teach her how to be a good mother and to give her a break when she got overwhelmed. She'd probably home-school her children.

With the CPS scenario, she'd probably still end up pregnant young, only on her own. The odds are higher in foster care than in the general public that she'd be raped, killed or abused in the foster care system. The odds are greater that she'd end up on drugs or dead before she turned 30. With the need for acceptance, love and support, the odds are good that she'd end up with a STD from promiscuity.

Yeah, the cult looks like a much better option than CPS. Although I think I'll keep her and give her an even better option! :-)

1,012 posted on 05/23/2008 8:28:37 AM PDT by Marie (Why is it that some people believe everything that happens is the will of G-d - except Israel?)
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To: UCANSEE2

You may certainly ask. Unless you put a deed restiction on the property, though, the buyer can say whatever - and change his mind 5 seconds later.

That what the buyer said, compared to what he eventually did, don’t agree is not germane to the transaction.

Imagine you buy a farm, and tell the seller you will farm it. A day after closing, some developer offers ten times what you paid for it. You think, “Well, shoot - I can farm anywhere - give me the cash!”

Did you lie?


1,013 posted on 05/23/2008 8:28:51 AM PDT by patton (cuiquam in sua arte credendum)
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To: Gondring

“My criticism of how this was handled is not support for much of what they do. “

An excellent point.


1,014 posted on 05/23/2008 8:32:30 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (I reserve the right to misinterpret the comments of any and all pesters)
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To: dsutah
They have no business going to get welfare benefits, if they are capable of taking care of these wives and children!

They never got a dime of welfare from the state of Texas.

1,015 posted on 05/23/2008 8:35:29 AM PDT by Marie (Why is it that some people believe everything that happens is the will of G-d - except Israel?)
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To: CindyDawg

‘People in high places had to have looked over and gave opinions during those two days. Let’s just wait and see how this works out.”

yes they have, and the courts have decided the kidnappings were illegal.

Obviously the state wanted to take this place down and were looking for any reason. the local sheriff said in an interview that he was investigating them for 3-4 years and hadn’t found adequate reason to do anything.

So as much as I disagree with the polygamy the folks living there were not breaking the law. The State of Texas were the only people to break any laws.


1,016 posted on 05/23/2008 8:37:21 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: UCANSEE2; LeGrande

Not sure if I am communicating with the nice level headed ucansee2, or the mean one. Which is it today? Tomorrow?

;)


1,017 posted on 05/23/2008 8:38:21 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: patton

“Did you lie?”

In this case, the buyer admitted to the seller that he had lied, and that it’s real purpose was for the Warren Jeffs flock to move in.

I did not mean to imply it was a legal restraint of any kind.

It only goes to ‘deception’. Another factor in why Texans did not trust Jeffs and what he was doing.


1,018 posted on 05/23/2008 8:38:48 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (I reserve the right to misinterpret the comments of any and all pesters)
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To: untrained skeptic

There was a lot more than this call leading up to the raid(s). They local sheriff had been investigating them for a long time without finding any evidence.


1,019 posted on 05/23/2008 8:40:43 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: untrained skeptic

According to an FLDS lawyer on Greta Van Susteren’s show, Texas knew before seizing the kids that the man in the warrant had never been in Texas.


1,020 posted on 05/23/2008 8:43:02 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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