Clash of the Cavemen

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=295752 ^

[chessplayer]

25,000 B.C. In Europe, arctic glaciers reach as far south as London. Massive predators are on the prowl. Across the continent, two species of primitive man struggle to survive. The Neanderthals are natural hunters, built for brute strength and well-adapted to the cold. However, they lack the understanding of technology and ability to speak in abstract terms that our species has. The Cro-Magnon, Homo sapiens are smarter but more fragile. With exciting new research in anthropology, archaeology and genetics, follow these early humans through a season of survival.

[Wonder Warthog]

"But further analysis of Mungo’s mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) could not link him to any human population living today."

That is literally an impossible condition, as all humans share some percentage of DNA---so Mungo Man HAD to have some percentage of DNA overlapping modern humans. The question is "what percentage".

[SunkenCiv]

The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve

Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

[SunkenCiv]

Uhhhh, yes! :’)

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks!

[SunkenCiv]

The Homo Heidelbergensis sample (this was to check for affinities between Neandertal and us folks) yielded fewer than 400 base pairs, out of a presumed 16,000+ originally in the mtDNA. The “study” was GIGO.

[SunkenCiv]

Either we ALL are, or none are. I’ll not argue against the fact that we all are. But I will argue that Europeans are NOT a species offshoot (mix of Neanderthal and Homo Sapien). And that the rest of the world are all Homo Sapiens.

That's not what Wolpoff claims anyway.

[SunkenCiv]

"Genetics is moving so fast," says Chris Stringer, a paleoanthropologist at the Natural History Museum in London. "It's well ahead of the fossil and historical record."

Heh... Stringer is a Replacement advocate, actually *the* Replacement advocate, and that's just another in a long line of European-based racial superiority models.

Doncha love that quote, though -- the actual morphology, on which *all his assumptions are based*, doesn't mean anything, because we've got some DNA of some few thousands of living people, out of a population of six billion and more, and have made no sampling bias errors, and maintain our original assumptions as the conclusions of every study because we're right and everyone else is wrong, nyah nyah.

The non-speaking Neandertal idea is a persistent baseless idea, and makes a great companion to the baseless idea -- which has come down from Virchow -- that Neandertal went extinct and the glorious, gracile, body-beautiful moderns survived. And sometimes it's even claimed that not a drop of blood was shed in the process. I regard this whole corpus as analogous to Judge Bork's "political seduction of the law" -- it's the political seduction of science.

[SunkenCiv]

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	Gods Graves Glyphs	Thanks Fractal Trader. This part was crap: The Neanderthals are natural hunters, built for brute strength and well-adapted to the cold. However, they lack the understanding of technology and ability to speak in abstract terms that our species has. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
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[RightWhale]

non-speaking Neandertal idea is a persistent baseless idea

Of course they talked. The wimmin gossiped about the men when the men were out ambushing an aurochs and the men joked about a less-than-dextrous move that got one of them trampled by the aurochs. How would it be any different than now?

[SengirV]

That’s what Vaquero implied. So go argue with him.

[null and void]

Did that count as bestiality or ..

Since they produced viable, fertile offspring, no. That passes the test for same species.

[null and void]

"The authors found that the Cro-Magnon mtDNA fit well within the spectrum of genetic variation exhibited by modern Europeans, but differed sharply from that of the Neandertals. They conclude that it is unlikely that Neandertals contributed to the current European gene pool."

Not what the data shows. mtDNA is a girl thing. The data shows that Neanderthal women did not contribute their DNA to modern Europeans. It is likely a Cro-Magnon man/Neanderthal woman match would result in a baby with a head too big for her birth canal.

OTOH a Cro-Magnon woman/Neanderthal man match could easily result in a kid that is stronger than mom's people and smarter than dad's people.

Why do you suppose our propaganda is saturated with the depictions of the enemy as ape-men coming to get our wimin?

It speaks to something very deep in the human psyche...

[SunkenCiv]

“If the Neandertal had stayed in school when the Cro-Magnon schoolmarm had hit the neighborhood, he wouldn’t have been stuck with Auroch.” — John Kerry

[null and void]

Wow! Mungo Jerry went back much further than I remembered!

[Wonder Warthog]

"It is likely a Cro-Magnon man/Neanderthal woman match would result in a baby with a head too big for her birth canal."

Actually, the Neanderthals had larger total brain volume than the Cro-Magnons by about 100 mls (on average).

[null and void]

But a Cro-Magnon head is rounder, and therefore wider.

Anyway, the real question is how much does the head grow after infancy.

Does a Neanderthal have a smaller or narrower head at birth than a Cro-Magnon? I'm guessing yes. Given how poorly the remains of neonatal mammals survive I doubt we'll ever have any proof one way or the other.

[Drammach]

It is likely a Cro-Magnon man/Neanderthal woman match would result in a baby with a head too big for her birth canal. OTOH a Cro-Magnon woman/Neanderthal man match could easily result in a kid that is stronger than mom's people and smarter than dad's people.

Good point, actually.
Note that the "Liger" and the "Tigon" are hybrids, one is robust, the other weakly and generally does not survive into adulthood.
The possibility of one gender-based hybrid's success ( but untraceable DNA assimilation ) and the other hybrid's failure to leave a genetic legacy is a valid one.

[null and void]

Hmmmmmm. Good point about the Liger and Tigon. Now I’m wondering if the sudden success of modern man is due to ‘hybrid vigor’ associated with some of the Neanderthal genes being thrown into the mix?

[xsmommy]

you and your buds at it agin? ; )

[null and void]

Note that the "Liger" and the "Tigon" are hybrids, one is robust, the other weakly and generally does not survive into adulthood.

Just a thought...

Would the Crothal and Neadernon possibly be Goliaths and leprechauns?...