Texas used seized FLDS records against polygamous sect

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 05/06/2008 | Brooke Adams

[MrEdd]

Census sheets found in a safe at a polygamous sect's ranch in west Texas both support and contradict the state's claim of a widespread culture of underage marriage.

Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.

A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.

A Texas Ranger testified about the census sheets during an April 17-18 court hearing before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who accepted the records as evidence despite objections from attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. The pages were recently released by the court. Sgt. Danny Crawford said the sheets were found April 5 in an office at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Texas authorities raided the ranch on April 3 after receiving reports of an abused 16-year-old, calls now being investigated as a possible hoax.

Authorities have said, however, they found evidence of a polygamous lifestyle and underage marriage practices at the ranch that supported removing 464 children.

The bishop's record sheets helped them make that case.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I’m a Presbyterian (PCA). It’s no secret, but hardly pertinent to a discussion of whether CPS is acting legally, or in a manner that should be acceptable in a free society.

There’s a reason some founders chose to write anonymously. People are way too quick to look into someone’s circumstances to find a way around addressing the arguments being made. As I don’t make ANY arguments which appeal to the authority of my church, the church I belong to is rarely of real importance.

If my arguments are logical, they are so whether I am Mormon, or Presbyterian, or Wiccan. If my arguments lack logic, they do so whether I am a member of the preferred religion or not.

On the other hand, I’m not hiding my religious affiliation, so I don’t mind answering.

My penchant for taking the “other side” of issues because I am trying to hone my understanding and really explore in depth sometimes causes people to identify me with groups that I frankly have little use for otherwise.

It’s not a common approach, I learned it in high school debate class.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Actually, I never really figured out what “post after” was refering to. when I’m in multiple threads, I sometimes just jump in using the “ping” page, but frankly I miss how the old ping page used to turn the links a different color after you visit them.

So it’s quite possible I simply missed the ping, and then removed it because now you have to manually mark them as read, whether you really know you read them or not. If you could mark each one as read as you went (which is what the old color change of link did for you), this would be easy.

As I don’t think anybody else has ever accused me of being unwilling to discuss my opinion, your safer bet is to assume that, while answering multiple pings from you, I missed one.

Unless you asked me if I personally knew any child molesters. There are a lot of questions I’ll answer, but for some reason that one seemed over the top.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I followed the links back to the post (mine) which I think you said I should read the post after.

I have already responded to the post after that, which was one where you quoted another freeper who had answered my question. I had responded to THAT post when it was made.

[takenoprisoner]

You seem to miss one little point. The girls were under age. Or is that ok with you? susie

I don't know that they were and neither do you. NO CHARGES have been filed for this. For fact Warren Jeffs of this sect was charged and convicted as an accomplice in rape for his action in marrying a 19 yo to a 14 yo. Is this what you are ranting about? My grandmother married my grandfather when she was 14. Should the JoP have been charged with rape for marrying them?

Exactly what age are you talking about. I'll need factual details that are absolutely indisputable. If you don't have this to report as fact, then exactly what are you doing defending acts of terrorism against these mothers and their children?

"Authorities" were so knowledgable regarding the sect they just knew they would need this armored personell carrier to ensure the success of the raid. Actually it wasn't needed and they knew it wasn't needed. Nonetheless, it has a great psychological effect intimidating folks into absolute submission.

Enjoy the NWO police state. Coming to a subdivision near you soon.

[UCANSEE2]

So.... weren’t you going to ask a question?

[UCANSEE2]

“Unless you asked me if I personally knew any child molesters. “

If that’s the worst thing you have been asked, then consider yourself lucky.

I have been asked much worse.

[CindyDawg]

Not yet but the AG is taking a look.

[ansel12]

“”Authorities” were so knowledgable regarding the sect they just knew they would need this armored personell carrier to ensure the success of the raid. Actually it wasn’t needed and they knew it wasn’t needed.”

---

To go to that open setting at those distances without a vehicle that was armored would be ridiculous.

The armored vehicle is just that, a movable defensive shield to protect lawmen, to rescue wounded people, to remove children or hostages with a bullet proof vehicle to protect them in while moving, to not take it would be a cause to fire the leadership of the police operation.

[politeia]

"In Texas, under 18 are not subject to common law marriage. In fact under 16 require permission from a judge, as well as parents. Common law statutes are not going to help the FLDS overmuch."

No, the concern I express is the need to enforce the state's laws against polygamy for women and men of all ages. I am not just concerned with the "under 18" polygamist marriages but all of them since it is the practice of polygamy itself that is the root cause of all the other abuses in the polygamist communities and polygamy is illegal in Texas for people of any age.

Obviously, those underage girls involved in polygamous marriages will be treated as victims of sexual abuse and their "spouses" will face prosecutions for those crimes as well as being prosecuted for polygamy for having multiple spouses.

[UCANSEE2]

Your question was roughly , why take all the children, why not give them back, some of them, just the ones that aren’t victims?

Here is what I have found. As much of it as possible is from the HORSE’S MOUTH.

---

In contrast to Thursday’s 11 hour session, Judge Walther said testimony would be cut off at 4 p.m. She gave the state two hours to make its presentation, followed by cross-examination by lawyers representing the children and their families. She gave no indication of when she would rule on custody.

When a lawyer for one mother complained that she has not been served with a legal notice regarding the seizure of the children, Judge Walther responded that it was difficult for constables “to serve or give notice to a parent when the parent will not give the officers their names or any kind of identification.”

In her testimony, Voss said that some of the children being held were Canadian citizens, although she did not say how many, or their age or sex. She said the children should remain in custody regardless of their citizenship.

Friday’s action followed a confusing session on Thursday during which lawyers in two locations three blocks apart denounced the mass hearing, which is unusual in a Family Court matter, saying it was unfair and benefited the state.

Judge Walther denied their objections, but said all parties would be heard, no matter how long it took. She assured the lawyers for the children and their families, “You have not waived all of your rights.”

The question facing Judge Walther is whether the children on the ranch were abused or whether they are at risk of being abused. Among the difficulties facing authorities was identifying which children were abused. And the judge might have to decide whether the community’s practice of under-age marriage meant the entire culture constituted a danger to children.

Indeed, dealing with a community where children had multiple “mothers” and numerous half-siblings with a single father, the judge might be forced to define what constitutes a family.

“We have to balance the requirement in the statutes that this hearing must be held within 14 days,” Judge Walther said. “It’s not a perfect solution. I wish I could give you a perfect solution. There is not one.”

The broad task faced by Judge Walther is to determine whether the children at the ranch were abused or at risk of abuse. If so, who were they? Was there a pattern of endangerment and under-age marriages that would make the community’s culture itself a danger to the children if they were returned to their parents?

The difficulty of that task is compounded by confusion over how nontraditional families function, with one child raised by many “mothers,” all married to the same man, and a complex tangling of sibling lines.

The subtext of much of the case is whether individual behavior or group behavior is under the microscope.

One lawyer, Tom Vick, who is part of a state judicial effort to recruit volunteers to represent the children, said outside the courtroom that he thought membership in a polygamist sect was not the issue.

“People want to look at this as a religion thing or a polygamy thing,” Mr. Vick said. “It’s about child abuse.”

Legal experts who are closely watching the case say the line is not that clear.

A slightly exasperated Judge Walther continues.

The real issue we haven’t even been able to get to, and the issue is whether or not the court can return these children to their parents. To the extent that you all want to argue about procedure [I’ll let you)] but you need to help me focus on what the issue is: Did the department act on evidence in a way that, based on the light of day, is insufficient for the department to continue to be the temporary conservators? This is a continuation of the emergency process and it is designed to have a little looser procedure, so that the parents are not hampered.

One aspect upon which the judge must rule is a little baffling.

One of the judge’s tasks is to determine whether or not the ranch constitutes a “home” under state law.

Does this mean that if the ranch was not a home, the parent did no wrong in marrying off an underage daughter?

[CharlesWayneCT]

No.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Not the worst. Just, for some reason, the one that struck me as the most completely inappropriate.

I’ve been asked worse questions that I had no problem answering.

[UCANSEE2]

“No.”

---

So... you accept that the court is doing the right thing in the custody case?

[UCANSEE2]

“”Authorities” were so knowledgable regarding the sect they just knew they would need this armored personell carrier to ensure the success of the raid. Actually it wasn’t needed and they knew it wasn’t needed.”

---

It is much better to have it and find you don’t need it, then need it and find you don’t have it.

Boy Scout Motto: Be Prepared.

[UCANSEE2]

“Actually it wasn’t needed and they knew it wasn’t needed.”

WHO knew it wasn’t needed?

“They” is not a very specific term. And it does matter who you mean by “they”.

[CharlesWayneCT]

No, I still don’t know. But it’s pretty public, so I presume eventually we will have the facts.

And as the case is old news now, I’m not really worried that new readers are going to stumble into these threads and get the wrong ideas.

So I going to take the opportuntity to drop out. It’s one of those stories that really you can’t discuss on FR anyway. And I mean that seriously — there are some things that you simply can’t have a discussion about, at least not a civil discussion.

[AppyPappy]

Yes but you are taking the slippery slope argument which is not always effective because you cannot predict what will happen.

Most of the actions of this group were in plain sight. They confess to being polygamists. Stories of abuse were coming out when people left the sect. Someone had to do something. As it turns out, the state was right. There was polygamy and there was abuse.

I’m reading a book on polygamy and found out that polygamist children are taught to hide their identity. Many times, birth certificates are not written up. It will take the state a long time to undo what the cult has done to the kids.

[AppyPappy]

Secondly, I was curious why Mormons defended the sect. The cult took a dim view of Salt Lake City and even claimed to be oppressed by them. I wasn’t bagging the Mormons. I really couldn’t figure out the reasoning.

[brytlea]

It is clearly pointless to discuss things with you. You have seen the information here on FR, and clearly you disregard it. I’m not going to repost everything. You appear to be bound and determined that the govt is evil and just wants to break up families. So, go in peace to believe as you will.

susie

[takenoprisoner]

“Not yet but the AG is taking a look.”

You’re right about that dawg. Charges against the man, who allegedly initiated this hostage taking, have been DROPPED!

The question now, how do the “authorities” who seized these hostages find a way to release them without appearing as fascist as they actually are?