THE GREAT APOSTASY Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History Chapt. 2

http://www.cumorah.com/etexts/greatapostasy.txt ^ | James E. Talmage D.Sc.D., Ph.D., F.R.S.E.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

God can take much more than you can ever imagine, Saundra.

When God decided to flood the earth, He promised he would never do so again, and used the rainbow to remind us that mankind would never be destroyed in the manner by Him. I am sure that the sins that mankind commits today are so familiar to God, because He has been knowing and loving us since we were first created. And yet, the earth keeps spinning, and we keep making these same mistakes.

When God sent Christ to earth, He showed just how much he can take. Crucifying God is the boldest crime that man committed against Him. And yet, we were forgiven in the last moment of Jesus’ life as He hung on the cross. He said to His father that we should be forgiven, because we did not know what we were doing to Him.

We were given His spirit to reside within us, so that we are never separated from Him. And we are taught that the only unforgiveable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing that man has done since the time of Jesus that cannot be washed away by the blood of Christ. If a sin were so permanent that human pleadings for forgiveness from Him were not answered, then Christ’s sacrifice is meaningless.

God sees us a His children. And He loves us in much the same manner as a human father can. But unlike a human father, He can forgive anything, if asked.

If God tells man to forgive seven times seventy-seven, how many inifinite times can He forgive us? How many times in a day do you think a man sins? How many times a day do you think God forgives that man? God knows our sinful nature, because He allowed us to continue to live as sinners. He knows human kind will keep making the same mistakes, over and over, and yet He keeps His promise to us.

I will never believe that God has turned His back on me. I was born anew when I was saved by His blood. I’ve been bought and paid for. There is no separation from my God and me, because He resides within my heart.

Just as I love my son intimately, God loves me the same. And as I forgive my young child daily, God forgives me. He shows me the example of His love in my son’s relieved face, when I brush my son’s tears aside and tell him it’s okay. And as I forgive him, I can imagine that God does that for me, daily. And He will continue to do so until the moment that I die.

God’s love is infinite, and so is His forgiveness. All you need to find forgiveness from Him is to ask. It’s that simple, because that is the way He designed it.

[Elsie]

I guess TODAY’s memo was to SPAM FR with all kinds of stuff!

[Tennessee Nana]

God can only take so much. He has feelings.
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Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life..Psalm 23:6a

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Exodus 34:6 (KJV)

And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, Exodus 34:6 (NIV)

God does not have to attributes and weaknesses of man...

God is God...

His nature is different than man’s natural state...

But then someone who does not know God would not know that about Him...

[Tennessee Nana]

DUH !!!!

[Colofornian]

2. A question of the utmost importance is: Has the Church of Christ, thus authoritatively established, maintained an organized existence upon the earth from the apostolic age to the present? Other questions are suggested by the first. If the Church has continued as an earthly organization, where lies the proof or evidence of legitimate succession in priestly authority, and which among the multitude of contending sects or churches of the present day is the actual possessor of the holy priesthood originally committed to the Church by the Christ, its founder?

LDS are outwardly disengenous about a complete apostasy (lack of an “organized existence”) just looking at their own Scriptures:

(1) Three Nephite disciples are supposedly still alive, wandering around the earth somewhere, tarrying until Christ returns (3 Nephi 28:6-32). Grig are you yourself disengenous? Do YOU claim that His Church would one day be dead when Book of Mormon adherents have to acknowledge 3 Nephi 28?

(2) The same thing applies to the apostle John. Mormonism is unique in claiming that John, like those three disciples, is also alive & well & tarrying until Christ returns (D&C 7). Since you’ve gone out on a very weak limb with your thread post, Grig, you need to answer how it is the church can be both completely dead and not completely dead at the same time? What? John didn’t have any authority? (Give me a break)

(3) Notice also how the LDS church tends to play down linking passages together like Doctrine & Covenants 84:17-18, which says the priesthood would be one continuous priesthood and in D&C 86:8 it says it continued thru the lineage of fathers.

6. We affirm that the great apostasy was foretold by the Savior Himself while He lived as a Man among men, and by His inspired prophets both before and after the period of His earthly probation. And further, we affirm that a rational interpretation of history demonstrates the fact of this great and general apostasy.

Ah, Talmage & LDS folks who support this have the absolute gall and temerity to label Jesus and the Holy Ghost, along with the apostle Paul, as false prophets!

In claiming that Jesus both failed at His “mission” to keep a church together, Talmage labels Jesus a “false prophet!”

The Mormon Christ is the Christ who abandons His people, whereas the real Christ is the Ever-Present One who built a hell-resistant church.

Joseph Smith’s boast: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, Volume 6, Chapter 19, Page 408)

Question: Is Jesus a liar when he told the disciples in giving the Great commission of Matthew 28:20 that He would " be with them always? to the end of the age" [Oh, yeah. I forgot. LDS do consider Jesus to be such a liar...since they claim the Jesusless church leaders fully apostatized from being the Church...Orson Pratt has already authoritatively settled what the LDS opinion is of Jesus and Matthew 16:18 with this LDS general authority teaching: ]

The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell.. (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 189-190)

(The gall of Pratt…here was a man who was “ex-communicated” even from the Mormon church for a season!)

LDS essentially label Paul as a “false prophet” when he told the Ephesians: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus, throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph. 3:21)

Any Lds here care to point out exactly how it is that Paul falsely prophesied by mentioning which "age" that the church failed to bring glory to God? (Wanna go on record & be exact if you’re going to make such a slanderous accusation of the apostle?) How can there "be glory in the church...throughout ALL ages" if it's a total apostasy? Ya wanna speculate exactly what glory was brought to God by the church in the years 400 to 1800 if the current writers defaming the entire Christian church are right?

Furthermore, LDS label the Holy Ghost also a liar when the Spirit prophesied that the apostasy would be partial: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, thqt in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith..." (1 Tim. 4:1) [Why do they claim the Holy Ghost had trouble with his long-term vision when He communicated what He did to Paul?)

Tell me, why is that the Holy Ghost speaks so "expressly" about this matter in 1 Timothy 4:1, yet LDS are so hostile to what He has to say?

11. Is the fact of the great apostasy, -- the virtual overthrow and destruction of the Church established by Jesus Christ, -- to be regarded as an instance of failure in the Lord's plans? Is it a case of defeat in which Satan was victor over Christ?

So Jesus says in Matthew 16:18 that “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”

Whatever church Jesus Christ said he was building in Matthew 16:18, it wasn't going to be a shabby structure, which the LDS directly accuse Jesus of building. It wasn't going to "go to pot" in 300+ or even 1800 years, like the LDS commonly accuse Jesus of doing. In fact, the force of the future tense from this passage depicts a mighty, strong church--and one so sustained by an Almighty, strong Christ who PROMISED to be ALWAYS present (Matt. 28:20)—along with an always-present Holy Ghost (John 14:16) . In fact, Rev. 20:8-9 says this Church will never be overthrown.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

If God makes a promise, it does not change. His nature has never changed. When He tells us that his church will prevail under all conditions, it simply means that it has and it always will. His plan has been continuous through all time.

There never was an apostacy, as claimed, because it is an impossibility that it would have occured.

Jesus did not come to earth to lie to his disciples and the people He ministered. He came to show us the truth and that He is the key to finding the way to the Father. If you hold onto Christ, you are always a child of God.

The Mormon church emphasizes only what the prophets say. And yet, they claim that Jesus came to the Americas. When Jesus did come to the America’s what did He say? I NEVER see the Mormons quote His words. Are they concerned that if they did, we could all see that the Jesus of the Mormon church is NOT the Jesus of the NT?

So, show me chapter and verse in BOM where Jesus CHANGED his plan for mankind.

If Jesus came to the America’s as claimed, HIS WORDS would be of the most importance to mankind. Why aren’t they explained in detail on Mormon threads? Where are they, I ask?

If anyone cares to share these quotes of Jesus with us, I’m certain we would all be interested in learning what the BOM claims He said.

[metmom]

I believe he was a Prophet of God and we have a Prophet today,

So who is today's prophet?

[metmom]

God can only take so much. He has feelings.

God can only take so much because He is a just God. He will not let sin go unpunished not because it hurts His feelings but because sin is wrong and He is a just God.

His "feelings" have nothing to do with His nature and character.

[metmom]

There never was an apostacy, as claimed, because it is an impossibility that it would have occured.

Jesus said that He would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. And they haven't.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Even when Satan tempted Jesus, He did not crumble. Imagine, God standing strong before Satan. If He can do that, He can most certainly protect His church. God protected Mary and Joseph by sending them to Bethlehem. He was protecting His son. The Magi did not return to Herrod, further protecting Jesus.

Yes, Jesus was crucified, but that was done to fulfill God’s plan for all of mankind. If God can protect His Son, and then offer His Son as a sacrifice, surely He can protect His church, filled with those who love Him. Nothing is outside of the power of God.

When we are married in a Christian church we are told that what God has joined together should not be torn asunder by man. If God can protect a Christian marriage, certainly he can protect a church. In the eyes of God a Christian marriage, performed in His presence, is holy. If something as important as marriage is covered, we can see that God brings His committment to man in all of the details of our lives. He pays that much attention to our needs.

This is a God who is always present within the hearts of His people. He would never allow anyone to break that bond with mankind.

[metmom]

It would be unconscionable for God to allow almost 2,000 years of apostasy to exist before He decided to *correct* it.

If Mormonism is true and the rest is false, why would God have allowed so many people to go to hell for so long before He took steps to correct the *false* teaching?

It’s totally beyond my comprehension how someone could justify that, or even explain it.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

If Mormonism is true, then are we to believe that Christ’s blood is never sufficient? That when He said it was finished, that He had another twist in mind for our futures? That He would move the goal posts and leave us to Satan, when He said He wouldn’t? When He said He was the way to the Father, did He mention that soon He’d send another, a sinful man to show the way to God? How could that possibly be?!

That is so convoluted, I do not understand.

I have NEVER sat with another Christian who said that the faith that I have outlined above is not what Christ said.

And anyone who does say so to me is in my mind not a Christian.

His plan is so simple that a Child can understand it.

It is simple because that is the way God can reach us, with the heart, not with a guilty conscience. Guilt alone will not draw us close to him. It is with the grateful knowledge of forgiveness that we rejoice in Him, because He always has fulfilled His promise.

[Elsie]

So who is today's prophet?

This fellow...

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Seems only Christian churches and ministries are stepping into the gap to aid these young people as they are ignored by mormons.

Surely NOT!!

Time line:        0:53 - 1:02

Text:                "Let us reach out, to rescue those who so need OUR help; and lift them; to a higher role, and a better way."

 

...a better way.

[Elsie]

 

 

New LDS leader unlikely to remain in Holladay home

Monson probably will move to the church-owned 'presidential apartment'

 

By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune

 

Article Last Updated: 02/16/2008 08:07:42 AM MST

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Sometime soon, new LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson likely will move into the church-owned "presidential apartment."

    Though church spokesman Scott Trotter declined to say when or whether Monson will move, his three predecessors all lived on the top floor of Gateway Apartments on State Street in Salt Lake City, across from the LDS Administration Building and within a block of the Joseph Smith Memorial Building and the LDS temple.

    Monson and his wife, Frances, currently live in a modest home in Holladay, which the couple built about 40 years ago.

    But they're unlikely to stay in the house because church security officers would be better able to ensure Monson's safety at the apartment, which also offers easy access to his office through a complex maze of underground tunnels.

    The man Mormons believe to be their "prophet, seer and revelator" need never be seen on the street.

 

    The safety of LDS Church presidents remains a concern.

    In February 1993, Cody Judy, a 27-year-old California man, threatened to detonate a bomb he claimed was in his briefcase while LDS apostle (later president) Howard W. Hunter was speaking at Brigham Young University. Judy was tackled by students and security and was taken into custody without further incident.

    Though the bomb turned out to be a fake, it spelled the end of the era when an LDS president could casually reside in a city neighborhood.

    LDS presidents from the time of Brigham Young to Heber J. Grant lived variously in the Beehive House and nearby homes. Grant, who led the church from 1918 to 1945, refused to leave his house on Eighth Avenue and A Street. He reportedly would hear tour guides point to his house and declare it the "former residence of the president," while he sat on his front porch within view.

    George Albert Smith, who followed Grant, remained at his home on the corner of Yale Avenue and 1300 East until his death in 1951.

    David O. McKay divided his time as president between his South Temple residence and his summer home in Huntsville until ill health compelled a move into the Hotel Utah.

    Joseph Fielding Smith lived in the old Eagle Gate apartments (on the same site as the Gateway mall), and Harold B. Lee remained in his Federal Heights home during his brief 18-month presidency.

    Spencer W. Kimball lived on Laird Street in Harvard/Yale neighborhood. His Mormon neighbors enjoyed the proximity to their spiritual leader.

    "He seemed like any of our good neighbors," said Mavis Oswald, whose husband was Kimball's bishop. "He talked to children and winked at them while sitting on the stand [behind the pulpit]. He and his wife took walks in the neighborhood, visited with people and patted the dogs."

    Eventually, Kimball, too, had to be moved to Hotel Utah because of security concerns and declining health. He died there in November 1985.

[Elsie]

Oh!

Did I tell you that the APARTMENT is around 8,000 Sq. Ft.?

The POPE’s, in the Vatican, is around 900 Sq. Ft.