Posted on 05/04/2008 4:50:53 PM PDT by Grig
I believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and just like every other Prophet of God, he was maligned, persecuted, abused, lied about, mocked, misunderstood, mistreated. . . .
Eventually, they murdered him in cold blood, no trial, no jury, no judge.
I believe he was a Prophet of God and we have a Prophet today, a Prophet for a whole world, but he is only recognized by a remnant.
I believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and just like every other Prophet of God, he was maligned, persecuted, abused, lied about, mocked, misunderstood, mistreated. . . .
Eventually, they murdered him in cold blood, no trial, no jury, no judge.
I believe he was a Prophet of God and we have a Prophet today, a Prophet for a whole world, but he is only recognized by a remnant.
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Me too, Amen and Amen
Bump for later read - wishing I had the time now to read carefully through....
Who Holds the Keys: Pope or Prophet?
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Thanks for posting a site with two sides, of this many sided problem, FROM both sides.
FM
If you read the Book of Exodus, you will discover that God’s covenants and promises are conditional. And if we keep sinning and sinning, spitting in God’s face, we crucify His Son again and again. God can only take so much. He has feelings.
It’s like when a wayward child breaks his parents’ hearts so many times, they finally let go and the child (who is an adult) is free. The parents wait patiently for her return but they will no longer interfere.
19”Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, [...] 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
If the Lord promised to be with His Church until the “end of the world,” allowing them to correctly teach and observe the things He had taught them ... wouldn't that make total apostasy as described by the LDS and other Restorationist groups impossible?
In light of this promise, how or why could the Lord Jesus have permitted “the Gospel to be lost,” as LDS says it was?
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After reading what went before this verse of scripture, it looks like Jesus is talking to and about the 11 disciples, not the church as a whole.
You are most welcome. People can discuss and disagree without being disagreeable as evidenced by those two friends.
INTREP
Dennis - A Sixth
Generation Mormon
I grew up in an LDS family and was a sixth generation Mormon. My parents were always active, temple-going Mormons and the same was expected of me. I never had a problem of believing in the Mormon story and was very happy when called to go on a mission to Finland where I served faithfully for two and a half years. After my mission, I married my wife, Rauni in the Salt Lake LDS Temple and started serving in the ward and stake. Called to be an Elders Quorum President when I was still in my early 20’s, I held teaching and leadership positions from there on. I was in my 30’s when I was ordained a High Priest and called to serve on the Stake High Council. Being busy in the Church and its activities, doing a lot of temple work, in addition to my ward and stake positions, took all the free time I had. It was Rauni who started pointing out that there were problems with Mormon claims and that we should check them out.
Rauni - An LDS Church Translator
I was a convert to the LDS Church in Finland where I, too, served a full-time mission before coming to the States. I started working as a translator for the Finnish language in the Church Offices almost immediately after arriving in Salt Lake City, working there almost fifteen years. This translation work gave me an opportunity to study Mormon history from many books not generally available to the membership of the Church. I started to wonder because I saw so many changes in the Church doctrines and contradictions between its’ scriptures and writings of the prophets and the high leadership of the Church. I was concerned because it was obvious that the Church was hiding a lot of important information from its’ membership. I had teaching positions both in the Sunday School and in the Relief Society, and also served on the Stake Relief Society Board. But when these problems in Church doctrine became too much for me to accept I suggested to Dennis that we check them out once and for all and compare Mormon doctrine to the doctrine of the Bible to see if they matched.
http://www.hismin.com/AboutUs.htm
“Know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free.”
God Bless,
The Beloved Levinite
Well, here's the "Not-so-Great Apostasy...RE-Considered in the light of a True Scriptural Review" (Using the same Scripture passages that this joke of an LDS "apostle" used)
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Talmage says: this is a prediction when there should be no Church of Christ to be found What? First of all, the OT doesn’t even use the word “church” (Mormon ignorance coming out full-scale). Secondly, what? This is a claim of the Bible totally disappeared from the earth, too?
Isaiah 24: 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Did you happen to notice those last three words? (few men left). Few men left of what? (Habitants of earth, it says in v. 6). Beyond that, you should quote it in context starting with v. 1, where it says the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste…and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof. In v. 4, it says The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth an dfadeth away… (Clearly Isaiah is talking about the entirety of the earth and all its inhabitants, not just God’s people in the church) [Talk about a pathetic attempt to indict the historic Church!]
BTW, I notice in LDS lists it "conveniently" skips over the OT passage of Daniel 2:44 (And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...it will stand for ever.") and though Grig’s thread selection article cites Heb. 13:20, this LDS “apostle” conveniently skips over Hebrews 12:28 (Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved...). God's Kingdom delivered will stand for ever...it can't be shaken.
Talmage went on and added the normal lineup of passages on “apostasy” in the LDS KJV or Quad.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
OK, doesn’t an LDS “apostle” know the difference between the words “many” and “all?”
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
Yes, so? It doesn’t say all of the prophets at that point will be “false” ones, does it?
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
I agree with this passage. Where does it say that these wolves would devour everyone in sight?
2 Thess. 2:3-4 In addressing the Thessalonian saints, Paul warns them against the error strongly advocated by some that the day of Christ's second advent was then near at hand.
So? Of course, some errorists and misguided folks cropped into the early church. Even Talmage says this applies only the “Thessalonian saints.” For those who think this applied to 18th & 19th century Christians (or before), note what the Joseph Smith supposedly “inspired” version (JST) says: “That man of sin…the son of perdition…exalteth himself above all…showing himself that he is God.” (2 Th. 2:4) [Any Mormon care to tell us who that is & when he has appeared in history? Ah, I thought not]
1 Tim. 4: 1 giving heed to seducing spirits.
And this verse says "some"--which you left out. (Wanna explain why ALL LDS always leave out "some" when summarizing this verse? Why do Mormons ignore this express communication of the Holy Ghost? Why do they continue to misrepresent what the Holy Ghost says in an intentional deceptive manner?
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
While Talmage references the entirety of the context (vv. 1-6), he then turns around and ignores it: 2 Tim. 3:6 says they have crept into “houses”!!!! (not the church!!!) 2 Tim. 3:1-2 says this is true of "last days...people." These "people" inhabit every structure: Homes, offices, churches of every stripe. But that doesn't mean they are primarily concentrated in Christian churches, now does it? (In fact, “church” or “church leaders” or “Christians” or “members” or anything like that isn’t even mentioned in these 6 verses!). So why are Mormons repeating the error of JoeSmith and offending all of us by applying this to being overly unbalanced re: our churches?
Talmage twists & distorts typical of LDS “apostles”: …here we find the Church sinking to the degraded level of a human institution, with plan of organization and mode of operation foreign to the constitution of the original, without priesthood or authority to officiate in spiritual ordinances, and devoid of the gifts and graces with which the Savior endowed His Church at the time of its establishment. In short, we find the Church itself apostate, boasting of temporal power, making its own laws, teaching its own dogmas, preserving only a form of godliness…
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
At last, Talmage finally hits upon a serious widespread prob in the church. The prob, tho, is "id'd" in v. 3: "men will not put up w/sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great # of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." The main problem id'd here is grassroots' "itching ears" and not top-down authoritative creedal problems.
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people.
Talmage at least cites the context (first three verses) but then promptly ignores it: v. 2: "Many will follow their shameful ways..." "Many!" (All? Not even close)
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
OK. Nobody disagrees that there are real "saints" opposed by the devil. It says nothing that the reality of false "saints."
Rev. 14:6-7: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water."*
In Rev. 14:6, note that word “another” before the word angel. The preceding chapters in Revelation already had a number of angels…this was simply “another.” If this was fulfilled in 1827 as the Mormons contend, then when were the events preceding Rev. 14:6 fulfilled? Also, note vv. 8-9 where other angels followed. Where were these in Mormon history? Finally Rev. 14:7 says it’s a “message of judgment”…so are Mormons saying that the Mormon gospel is a “message of judgment?”
I will say it here loud and clear: Any Mormon who believes that every and all other members of different churches are automatically and inherently apostates of the faith, are liars and proclaimers of a false gospel!
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