Arbitrarily.. you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Where is Warren Jeffs, and why is he there? Who was ultimately in charge of this compound?
Posted on 05/01/2008 4:44:54 PM PDT by Politicalmom
SAN ANTONIO — A judge ordered that the baby boy born to a girl taken from a polygamist sect's ranch in West Texas be placed in state custody, according to documents released Thursday.
Texas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old.
The girl has claimed to be 18, according to an affidavit signed by Ruby Gutierrez, a Child Protective Services caseworker, but officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.
The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy. The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22, but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts.
Child welfare officials now have 464 children in their custody, swept from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado because authorities believe underage girls were forced into marriages and sex with older men. Authorities are also now investigating possible sexual abuse of boys.
Church members have vehemently denied there was any abuse, and civil liberties groups have raised concerns at the sweeping nature of the removals.
Individual custody hearings are set to be completed by June 5.
CPS and law enforcement raided the ranch on April 3 after a girl who was purportedly 16 called a domestic abuse hotline to complain of abuse at the hands her much older husband. Authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.
Regardless, child welfare authorities say 31 of the 53 girls aged 14-17 have children or are pregnant.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but the girls who belong to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are not believed to have legal marriages.
FLDS is a breakaway sect of the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy a century ago.
Reread what I said (and maybe take a breath). Where is the vast age difference between this girl and the ostensible father? If there is no vast age difference, does it still fit the pattern of forced marriages? I keep reading that all the young men were kicked out, but this seems to suggest otherwise, and so I wonder if the force of attraction was also otherwise - hormonal.
It is like I mentioned earlier, some of these people don’t care about abuse, or anything else.
They are libertarians and to them the Government is the enemy not people who committ sexual abuse, mind control, etc.
Their way of argument is in a circle. Reality just gets in their way
...in reality that can not be done by assuming that any custodian from the place they just came from is safe.
In most normal cases, I am sure the children are removed after you(or whoever) have obtained some evidence of mistreatment. It doesn't appear from this article that there is any evidence of the sort on the individual's part.
Is all that likely? Probably not, but I'll bet the Authorities haven't even checked the marriage records for the proper period and jurisdictions.
It's also not clear if she and the man she names as the father were even in Texas in November of 2005, or a bit earlier. If they were not, then the laws in whatever state they were in were at the time, would be the deciding factor.
Again a 19 y/o and a 15 y/o is way different than a 40 or 50 something and a 15 y/o. Willing is also way differnent that forced.
Arbitrarily.. you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Where is Warren Jeffs, and why is he there? Who was ultimately in charge of this compound?
And it divorces itself from the reality of this group. Girls were taught to avoid boys as they were "snakes" (so says Warren Jeffs, their prophet). No dating, flirting or kissing was permitted before marriage. Marriages were determined by Jeffs.
So the "pattern it more closely resembles" has no analogy or parallel within this cult.
Hey..we agree on something. I read your post. Sad. I can see where this could be personal for you.
We had a rule at my house. If someone decided to call CPS on fake child abuse then I would pack their bag and send them on their way with CPS, when they arrived. I meant it and my teenage son must have believed me because he only threatened me one time.
Yeah,
Little House on the Prairie Gone Wild.
I’ll bet my grannies chamber pot that there hasn’t be a sexually satisfied woman on an FLDS compound ever.
Actually, that is exactly what I have been saying tonight.
So? Perhaps #343 expressed it the best.
I have not posted anything that I would retract, unless it was interpreted as a personal attack against another Freeper.
Perhaps my choice of words could have been better, but that is what happens when you get emotional about a subject.
that is abundantly clear with your every post.
Adullts should not be abused either . If a woman reported “bad behavior” of a younger adult wife to the “husband” and knew or stood by while he “whipped” her then that is still hurting others.
Since I have been posting on these threads for some time now and in case anyone cares to know I am very Roman Catholic.
If the allegations are correct, then Texas is doing the right thing. However, this is the crux of the matter. Is Texas following the rules?
Our legal system does not make provisions of allowing certain rights to those people we “like” and denying those same rights to people we “don’t like”.
When an agency that is ran by an un-elected official, who has power that has little or no check and balances, can arbitrarily decide to remove 462 children from a group of people - I question the authority.
If I am wrong (perhaps all 462 children need to be removed); a series of individual cases will confirm this. However, one kangaroo court case held over a 21 hour session on the day the invasion of the FLDS compound does not justify the actions taken.
However, if the court cases find 1 child that was forcibly taken without probable cause, and then held without probable cause - then civil rights have been violated. The backsplash will do several bad things.
1. FLDS will find a HUGE contribution into their coffers funded by the taxpayer.
2. Legal precedents will be set that will hamstring future endeavors, making law enforcement more difficult than it already is.
3. Other more violent cults will exploit the findings of the courts to protect their property while they train to kill innocent civilians (ie. Muslim extremists)
FLDS - follow the rules, obey the law.
CPS - follow the rules, obey the law
Texas - follow the rules, obey the law.
These aren't HS kids making out in their car; these girls are married to the elders of this cult. THERE IS NO PROMISCUITY!!! Until you, no one alleged that.
Well,
we have had a lot of one handed typers.
You think it was easy for a parent to watch his daughters loose custody of thier children?
If they were honest in court, nothing would have happened and they would have obtained custody of thier children.
However, both of them lied and accused thier husbands of sexual abuse.
I could not allow that!
My post was a joke to myself, sorry. Someone had already posed your question, word-for-word, in an earlier post. Thus my joke about textual criticism and a source "Q." Sorry if it was too obscure. My answer was in post 210.
If your daughter said "My name is Sarah Jones" to one investigator and then 15 minutes later said "My name is Suzie Smith" to the investigator. And then said, "I'm 18, honest" when it was quite obvious she wasn't. And then when asked who the father of her child was, she said "I dunno" would you expect CPS to say, "Okey dokey. Have a great day!" ?It's not a "reluctance" to talk to government interrogators. It's the willful, coached obstruction of a government investigation which caused the problem. Not a kid saying, "I'm scared."
Those who were there have not only said so, but some fathers who have had their children removed from them and given to others and who were kicked out of the cult have come forth for DNA to show they are the fathers.
You are not at all concerned for justice nor for the well being and safty of the abused children and boys and women and men, but you are just hoping the evil cult leading, guilty of the worst and most vile and perverted practices can somehow be given a pass by an OJ type of Jury.
It ain’t a gonna happen, sir. Nope! These children will never be returned to the “iron curtain” walls of flds, for the sick evil persons there to continue to practice their demonic perversions.
How many previously broken bones do you suppose one would find in a random group of 450 or so middle to lower middle class American kids? 41 is less than 1 in 10. I can think of at least 3 "kids" with broken bones during my own childhood. One of them is my brother. One is my cousin, and I broke it (accidentally!) the other was later my partner as a student manager of a school basketball team. (If you're counting that's one arm, one middle finger and one clavicle) I've broken my wrist, but as a father of two, one of which was old enough to drive at the time.
Now does that mean there was no abuse? Of course not, but one can make most any common thing sound sensational.
You are using deductive reasoning - if A is true and B contradicts A, then B can't be true. I am saying that A is a generalization that B may not support. I am interested in getting at the truth behind the generalizations. I want to see facts, evidence of prosecutable crimes, and then see those crimes prosecuted.
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