Can I get you a tissue, sweetie?
Posted on 04/28/2008 5:27:59 PM PDT by Sub-Driver
31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby
By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer 2 minutes ago
More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.
A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two are pregnant now, CPS officials have said in court; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.
"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," he said.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage "spiritual" marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect's children.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
State officials said earlier that they had found girls who were pregnant or had children of their own at the ranch, but they had not provided more than rough estimates until Monday.
Church officials have denied that any children were abused at the ranch and say the state's actions are a form of religious persecution.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
No need to be harsh.
I apologize. I was in a flip mood. Uncalled for.
Thank you for your good work!
Aye. But I was thinking of the response of the government in each case...
In the one case, the government breaks everything up, and in the other, the government subsidizes the activity; and in both cases it is "for the children". With LDS, "the children" means "the pregnant teenagers" and with the inner city teenagers, "the children" means "the infants".
Curiouser and curiouser.
No winners, either place.
So, I'm not the only one to pick up on this? Blackbird.
You scream from the rooftops that the Flds are not LDS yet when we post against the flds practices, you scream at us about that, too!
I've personally been called a Mormon hater (by a Mormon) when I've decried what the flds are doing. Why, since they aren't Mormon?
You can't have it both ways!
The difference here is that these girls, at 16 and 17 years old didn't have the choice you had. Your dad gave you a choice, stay and go to school or leave and be on your own.
These girls are told one day that they will be married to some 50 year old guy (I notice yor husband was your age!) and that they would be that guys 4th wife, at the same time (ummmm, I'm pretty sure you were your spouse's first wife).
If these 14, 15, 16, or 17 year old girls don't marry this 50 year old, they are turned away from their family. Never to see or speak to them again. Or they are just taken out into the desert, beaten up and left there to die or fend for themselves.
quite different than your dad giving you a choice, I think.
I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.
Let's keep score. If you post against what the FLDS practice you are.....
1) A mormon hater
2) a man hater
Will you next call us baby haters or woman haters? Seems that's where you're headed.
It's because so many people are lumping the Flds in with the LDS. It appears that you have a hard time understanding how simple my position is. Re-read if necessary.
It's not about me defending the Flds, which I am not doing, even though the closed-minded here read it that way. It is about defending the Constitution and Bill of Rights, you know the rule of law, due process. You've heard of them, I presume?
>>”You can't have it both ways!”<<
And I don't want it both ways. This is what I am talking about. You come in late to a discussion and read a few posts then attack someone without benefit of reading all their previous posts. If it doesn't fit your agenda immediately, you condemn and prepare to hang.
**ALL THE FACTS MUST COME IN B-E-F-O-R-E YOU START THE EXECUTING PEOPLE** I'm sure you would appreciate the same Due Process if you were accused of a crime that you didn't commit.
It's so freaking simple that my dog even gets it and he's a product of an accidental breeding between his mother with one of her grown pups (his uncle-brother), i.e., pretty much retarded.
Due Process (trials for each case individually) and cool heads must prevail or our entire justice system has failed. I pray for the kids, as I hope you also do.
Now, that didn't hurt, did it.
No, BbSST, you certainly aren't the only one that has responded with like sentiments!
Believe me, it's becoming more apparent with each new day of attacks. I honestly think about half of them are truly concerned about the welfare of the children. The other half are just men-haters, or as some say, Mor-men-haters.
Unfortunately, their hatred for the men at the Flds compound is stronger than their love for the Constitution & Bill of Rights. Sad, very sad.
The screeching is becoming unbearable. Thankfully there are many like you that exhibit adult reasoning and not opinions based on pure hyper elevated emotions. I thank you.
I was not trying to equate my experiences to those of anyone else, in any way- especially not those in FLDS. I was discussing the idea that 16 and 17 year olds are considered children under the law. In some ways 16-17 year olds are children, and in other ways they are adults. The states, and federal government in some cases had to decide at some point who is a child and who is an adult; it just seems to me our society sends mixed messages with laws. If a 16 year old can legally wed; even if it requires parental permission- then why is the age of consent higher? Why do the ages of consent and marriage vary so much from state to state? Why are ages of voting, drinking, and military service different? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I am fully aware that these were choices I was allowed to make and I did have the freedom to make them, right or wrong. The FLDS has been such a closed society, that it would seem that the claims that the members have no choices or free will are likely true. The FLDS is a unique, created society and I think only people who have lived in the FLDS teachings will be able to relate to them in any way. To the rest of us they are an extreme oddity, and many of their teachings are just plain unacceptable to most of us. To sort this mess out our laws will have to be used to bring whatever sanctions we can to prosecute the illegal acts. It will not be easy, and legally it will be a nightmare. Many of you keep quoting Texas law in relation to marriage and consent- yet how will it be proved that the underage girls became pregnant in Texas? Won’t that make a difference? Another question I have is about the women who are of age, they may be of age- but did they have free will to consent to sex or marriage? Even if they are/were of legal age at the time, their very religious beliefs don’t really allow women of any age to make decisions. So were all the women raped, regardless of age? Could that be legally proven? Who are the victims here? The easy answer is the children, and I agree- but what about the women? Does the way they were raised make them victims or should they be considered to be criminals, along with the men? If you give the women a pass due to their upbringing- weren’t the men raised under the same teaching? It really is a mess and there are no easy answers.
What we think of as being right or wrong is one thing; it will be much more difficult to apply laws to the acts, and be able to prosecute and convict based solely on the law. Judges and juries are not allowed to use their idea of right and wrong, they are only to consider legal issues. Legally this is a mess like most of us have never seen. I can understand that we must take action to stop many of the practices of the FLDS- but at the same time the legalities must be followed. That is why there really are so many angles to this case, so many things to discuss- we will never all agree on all the details, but we should all be able to discuss the different pieces to this without being attacked, or accused of terrible things, as has been common on these threads.
“This group has no time to listen to reason and are ready to hang every person that has a penis. I believe they not only hate Mormons (LDS), but hate men in general, if you know what I mean.”
Can I get you a tissue, sweetie?
What galls you the most is that the government was right. These are polygamists who are farming underage girls for sex. That much is now abundantly clear. Instead of getting up on your cross, you should be applauding the fact that we rescued these girls from these perverted old men.
Can I get you a tissue, sweetie?
The discrepancy may have to do with the definition of “teens”, which can include 18 and 19 year olds. And with the fact that many of the girls have been changing their stories about their ages, and some have certainly stuck with stories that were clearly refuted by medical evidence (i.e. X-rays). This report is about 14-17 year olds, but no doubt the children they already have aren’t all newborns. If a 17 year old from this compound has a 2 year old child, that’s just as much evidence of a crime as a currently pregnant 15 year old.
And of course, there are also 18 and 19 year olds with children who were conceived when they were 14 or 15, but those are probably the cases where there’s been a lot of lying about which children were born to which mother. My favorite is the Legal Aid Society attorney (Rebecca Flanigan) for 2 unnamed FLDS mothers claiming that 2 unnamed FLDS children are missing, and have been “lost” by CPS. Yesterday she said these children were 11 years and 16 months old. Today she says the younger one is 2.5 years old. Since presumably she’s getting her information from the woman claiming to be the mother, I think this is a pretty good illustration of the challenge facing CPS and the court.
DNA can confirm the biological parenthood of a child. A child’s age can be pretty closely established by X-rays of key bone structures. Putting the two types of info together, they’ll be able to determine at what age the mother was impregnated, and the identities of the fathers. Then a glance at the father will give a close enough estimate of his age to make clear when statutory rape has occurred. Obviously there will be a few borderline cases where it won’t be proveable whether the girl’s age was a little over or a little under the threshold for statutory rape, but in most cases it will be clear.
“Unfortunately, their hatred for the men at the Flds compound is stronger than their love for the Constitution & Bill of Rights. Sad, very sad.”
Pappy, you have proven my quoted statement found above........yet again.
I can't believe that FReepers, whom I have always looked upon as intelligent high I.Q.’d, freedom loving Constitutionalists be so quick to hang someone BEFORE a trial. It is blatant ignorance of the Constitution and our rights of due process and rile of law.
WE both/all know what was PROBABLY going on in the compound. With that said, only an idiot would fall in line and adopt the ‘hang ‘em high’ mentality BEFORE a trial.
If I've said it once, I've said it a 100 times. “If they are found guilty by a court of law before a jury of their peers then I WILL BUY THE ROPE TO HANG THEM WITH”.
I will not respond to any more freedom-hating FReepers on this subject. Save your time and your tissues.
Read your Bill of Rights and Constitution instead of growing old sitting at the computer pretending that you are a judge and jury. That job will be hopefully be delegated to folks of much higher intelligence and the desire to do the right thing and follow the law. Believe me, it is much easier in a fit driven by emotional hyperactive behavior to blurt “GUILTY” than it is to confidently say “INNOCENT”.
Let the facts come in and we can all, in unison, shout “GUILTY” or “INNOCENT”, whatever it may be.
Amen.
I thank you.
You nailed it AP...the government can never be right in their actions. No matter how horrific the actions of the flds (or any person or group) any government action is worse. Period.
The alleged 'men hating' and 'mor-men-hating' (how clever?) are just obfuscations...there are people who trully believe the government is always wrong.
“If they are found guilty by a court of law before a jury of their peers then I WILL BUY THE ROPE TO HANG THEM WITH”.
But otherwise, you don’t care how many girls are raped by these perverts. You sound like one of those people who say “We shouldn’t allow Conceal Carry because it turns people into judges”. How many girls are going to be raped while you build walls to protect the perverts from justice?
I’m not waiting for the trial to find out if a girl is being raped. We need to stop it NOW. Screw the trial. How about protecting the victims?
I can’t believe so many freepers are soft on crime. BTW any word on who killed OJ’s wife? I can’r believe they haven’t brought anyone to trial. Where is the justice?
We keep hearing promises about the jackboots kicking in our doors to arrest us on false charges but it never seems to materialize. I guess Y2K will change all that.
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