POLYGAMIST RANCH

The Dallas Morning News ^ | 4-23-08 | Robert T. Garrett and Karen Brooks

[Politicalmom]

SAN ANGELO, Texas – The first of more than 400 children taken from a polygamist compound boarded buses Tuesday bound for 16 emergency shelters, children's homes and foster care agencies throughout the state, including two in North Texas.

As the buses rolled out, the children eagerly waved and smiled at television cameras. Lawyers inside the San Angelo Coliseum who were meeting with their adult or child clients said authorities allowed no one in or out while the children, 114 of them by day's end, were loaded onto the buses.

[DelphiUser]

U Said: The BIBLE says...

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

The Bible does indeed say that, and it's talking about the coming change of the definition of God in 325 AD at the first council of Niceca, where a pagan emperor, Constantine called a council and set the agenda, attended the proceedings and got what he wanted, which was a definition of God that was acceptable to his whole empire so he could now make this newly remade religion the state religion of Rome. You want to say that a restoration of the knowledge of God and Christ's relationship is the change, the change happened long ago, i gave you a link here to the records Constantine himself had kept of the event, go read it, understand how offensive this was to God, a sun worshiper "defining" him. An unbeliever calling a council of Bishops and setting doctrine that was contrary to his will, this is the single most pinpoint-able event of apostasy that I know of, and all the believers of the Trinity have been misled by Satan's influence on the church in that very day.

You keep flailing away, ineffectually because you don't address the root disagreement. Why? Why are you so offended by someone you should dismiss (Joseph Smith) why do you waste major amounts of time attacking me on the web, why are you so obsessed? the only reason I can think of is you know and are in denial thus you spend all your time trying to deny truth, and in the end you will regret the waste of time.

God bless.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: I believe all that the bible says...

U Said: Yeah... sure...

---

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Yawn, let me repeat:

The Bible does indeed say that, and it's talking about the coming change of the definition of God in 325 AD at the first council of Niceca, where a pagan emperor, Constantine called a council and set the agenda, attended the proceedings and got what he wanted, which was a definition of God that was acceptable to his whole empire so he could now make this newly remade religion the state religion of Rome. You want to say that a restoration of the knowledge of God and Christ's relationship is the change, the change happened long ago, i gave you a link here to the records Constantine himself had kept of the event, go read it, understand how offensive this was to God, a sun worshiper "defining" him. An unbeliever calling a council of Bishops and setting doctrine that was contrary to his will, this is the single most pinpoint-able event of apostasy that I know of, and all the believers of the Trinity have been misled by Satan's influence on the church in that very day.

You keep flailing away, ineffectually because you don't address the root disagreement. Why? Why are you so offended by someone you should dismiss (Joseph Smith) why do you waste major amounts of time attacking me on the web, why are you so obsessed? the only reason I can think of is you know and are in denial thus you spend all your time trying to deny truth, and in the end you will regret the waste of time.

I do indeed believe the whole bible, as long as it is interpreted correctly, I have that in my cannon by my church, we are honest in our statements, you have no such caveat, so please explain why you disparage us for following James 2:14-26, and not following it your self, wait, does that count as changing the Gospel?

[DelphiUser]

U Said: Which god?

Oh Pulese! The God OF Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob, the holy one of Israel, Jesus my Lord, God. who is the God of the Old and New Testaments, in case you were not paying attention.

U Said: When you state "Jesus, my lord, my God", do you refer to only one being? How do I know about thoughts? Satan revealed things to God, in conversations about Job. Read the story.

Been there, read the Poem, Job is one of the Poetical books, you knew that right? Oh, and you don't know my thoughts, just read my words, OK? I'll tell you what I'm thinking.

I Said: I hope my faith and works are sufficient...your characterizations however are less than accurate.

U Said: They are not. As long as you feel you must have those works, you will fail. Works are a result of faith, not a substitution. You can tithe all you want, but it won't put a penny in your celestial accounts.

Um, Bible again? Revelations 12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

James 2: 17, 20, 26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
• • •
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
• • •
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev. 14: 13

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

IF you believe the Bible, you believe in Works and faith, not just faith, not just works, we believe you need both as the Bible teaches. Saying that we are a works based religion is a misrepresentation, and a lie.

U Said: Your only hope is faith in the shed blood ON THE CROSS! That faith brings eternal life, not eternal godhood.

The Bible says we will be Rom 8: 16-18

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

U Said: I have misrepresented nothing. I have only allowed the truth to be revealed. You answer no questions, just re-state your party line.

U Said: Come out of your hidden temple parlors and into the light! Turn away from your heathen practices, and turn toward God.

If you wish to deny your parentage of Deity, that is your affair, the Bible tells me that I am indeed a child of God, the Bible says that I can inherit all that the Father hath, don't try to drag me down to your private hell.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Jesus Inherited all that the father hath (God the Father who called Jesus to be God and gave him all power, and by the power of his Father Jesus created all things even all worlds, Jesus then came down from on high and condescended to descend lower than us all and bear our burdens and to lift our condemnation which we brought upon ourselves, by our sinful natures and redeem us from a justly deserved fate with his own blood did he purchase us, that we might return with him and live as kings in his kingdom, joint heirs of our father's throne, by his grace and mercy upon us his unworthy brothers, this is what i believe, and it's straight from the Bible. I know you don't agree with what I believe and will probably make fun, that's the way it's been for centuries, one religion attacking another, it's just sad that Christians are so mean spirited to their brothers in Christ.

God bless, and don't ask "which God", for there is but one godhead and one God over all creation, and he was set their by his father, and our father.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: ... I was not aware that Elsie was offering me anything...

U Said: Elsie has continued to offer you a clear picture.

ROTFLOL! You need to read more of Elsie's posts!

U Said: You are the one throwing mud to obscure the scene! Why not answer questions, instead of whining about calling foul?

Do you actually have an honest question?

I promise to do my best to answer an honest question you want to put to me, I do not claim to know every thing, but I know more about what I believe than you or Elsie does. In truth, I tell you that I have yet to detect an honest question from you, so please set it off in some way so I can separate it from your invective, Thank you.

U Said: I suggest that you have no answers that you are willing to reveal.

Click my name at the bottom of this post, read my page, follow my links, you obviously do no know anything about me that the simplest research would reveal.

BTW, It was the saddest day of this election cycle when FDT dropped out (I looked at your page, and thus know you are a fellow Fredhead...)

U Said: Darkness, again? Come out into the Light. Let us know what you really believe, instead of your deceit.

WOW! you have not even asked a question and already you are calling me a liar, I wonder if you think that is actually the way to get people to answer questions you have yet to ask...

U Said: I have studied your cult.

All religions that are organized enough to have a name are technically a cult, look it up, I did.

U Said: I am convinced it is a cult.

Yep, just like the Catholics, Baptists, methodists, and evangelicals...

U Said: It is anathema to Christians.

It is True Christianity, it is an anathema to "Orthodox" Christianity which was corrupted in 325 AD.

U Said: It teaches a path to godhood, bound with secret rituals, and tithing. It makes women second class, though you protest that with no facts, just your opinion.

Path to God hood, Just like Jesus was condemned for: Philip. 2: 5&6

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Since I am a man, and men were created in God's Image. Gen 1:26&27

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So, according tot he Bible, the title God can be plural...

and since the Bible promises that I can become a Joint heir with Jesus, Rom 8 : 16 - 17

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

so I am going from the Bible on this, no Joseph smith Quotations, no hidden doctrine, get it? I can also show you stuff written by Hippolytus and several other Pre Nicea church fathers that agrees with Mormonism, if you really want to go there, or do you just want to name call?

Oh, can't miss the women as second class citezens, LOL! since when, oh wait you believe that tripe about a man not calling his wife so she dosn't get to go to heaven, LOL what a load and you bought it, LOL!

U Said: I do not see LDS as Christians,

Fortunately then for me, it's not your opinion that matters, Jesus will judge who is his, and you should not be judging that (just a hint).

U Said: no matter what they call themselves.

Again, it's what Jesus call each of us that matters, not what we call ourselves or each other.

U Said: They do not accept me, either!

I truly believe you are a Christian, in that you believe in Jesus Christ, is that what you mean?

I Said: I don't believe in Idols

You put up a picture of Moroni on top of the Temple.

Have you ever seen a cathedral? How many churches have little Idols images of patron saints for people to burn candles in front of? How many have paintings of murals, how many "Christians" pray to Mary, or the Rosary, how many "Christians" have paintings of angels or apostles in their church, or stained glass windows? This is funny, you do realize that many of the same people who condemn us for some imagined breaking of a law are themselves breakers of the law, if it's interpreted the same for them as they would say it is for us?

A scripture for you.

Here is a fun little reference for you to think about:
As Dr. John A. Reiner, a Catholic Theologian said:

“You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.”

Source : A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p. 3

Mormons are what they are and we do not excuse ourselves, but neither do we take kindly to those who would paint us blacker than we are, the Pharisees painted Jesus as a criminal, so it can be done to anyone, but Christ did not and Christians should not paint anyone as any thing, they should be allowed to be as they are, good or evil without "help".

God bless you and bring you to a knowledge of his truths.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: If you or I are faithful enough...

U Said: Enough?

Yep, there will be many who in that day will cry Lord, Lord

U Said: I am 'enough', but I sure hope you work hard ENOUGH to be even CONSIDERED to be faithful enough.

Your proud boast tells me more than I wanted to know.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: 1. Do you believe there is more than one God?

I believe what the Bible says.

I only believe in God.

I Said: 2. Do you believe you can achieve godhood?

I believe I can inherit the Kingdom of God, as a joint heir with Jesus, because (you guessed it) the Bible says so. do you have a problem with not just believing the Bible, but believing what it says?

Now, before you accuse me of being "Cute" with my answers, I am answering in a more straight forward manner than your when did you stop beating your wife questions. IMHO, you are not asking something that you want me to know, you are asking me a question to put me in a "position" where you can demonize me, so of course being as wise as serpents and harmless as doves, as mark tells me to be, I answered you from the Bible, demonize it all you want, everyone will know your angle, no hiding, no tricks.

[WVKayaker]

Thou does protest too much! Maybe thou needest to read something besides Mormon literature.

Do you have training in classic Greek? How about Hebrew? How about Elizabethan English literature?

Here is a fun little reference for you to think about:

As Dr. John A. Reiner, a Catholic Theologian said:

“You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.”

Source : A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p. 3

..and that proves exactly what? I am not Roman Catholic. I don't recognize a Pope, either. Your cult certainly shows no "restoration of the Gospel", when it perverts the truths of that "good news".

Why can't God use a council in 325 AD, if you believe that an angel came to Joe Smith in the 1800's? I guess old martin Luther didn't see any truth, either, according to your list of cults.

I have presented honest questions, and get the party line... milk!

[WVKayaker]

Please answer yes, or no. I am not the cutesy one. 1. Do you believe there is more than one god? 2. I believe the Bible, just not your way of looking at it. I don't try and use single notes to make a symphony. Is there more than one god, in Mormon theology?

Is Lucifer equal to Jesus? Is Jesus actually the same as God? All of these things seem to be confused in the Mormon theocracy. I have read that faulty tome, your BOM... and I know the Bible. I have studied Classic Greek, in my quests. I sat with a Rabbi, to better understand the Hebrew Old Testament.

Joe Smith shouldn't hold the door for me. Gabriel has the key!

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Thou does protest too much!

A really good character assin never has to say that...

U Said: Maybe thou needest to read something besides Mormon literature.

Right now I'm reading through the Bartimous Chronicles, someone suggested it for my 13 year old, I don't think so, Harry potter was fine, this is a bit too much, if you haven't read it you won't know why.

Looking for a good series to chew through next, I read at 1500 WPM with a measured rate of comprehension rate of 98% according tot eh speed reading instructor from my 4th grade Speed reading class. (I had eye trouble and was a bit of an over achiever, still it helps me research, and I love to learn. I also read all the books before my kids are allowed to, you'd be surprised at what they try to sneak in these days (the Bartimous stuff isn't even sneaky.

U Said: Do you have training in classic Greek?

No, but I slept at a holiday inn express last night...

My uncle does, he speaks 11 languages fluently.

U Said: How about Hebrew?

I have an adopted Uncle who does (his orthodox Jewish family disowned him when he joined, so now I have a new uncle!)

U Said: How about Elizabethan English literature?

Read some of that, they get a bit racy for my taste, Classic Greek translated is pretty cool, plus the Catholic enclyclopedia on line has lots of interesting documents and no library card needed.

U Said: ..and that proves exactly what? I am not Roman Catholic.

Hey, neither am I! We've got one thing in common after all. It process that "Learned Men" (see the little Dr. in from of his name, it means he went to school and in this case studied religion) He having spent a long time studying religion thinks we have a leg to stand on, you seem to have done a few Googles and think you know all about us. It's pitiful, really.

U Said: I don't recognize a Pope, either.

here, you can usually pick him out by the hat, now at least you can recognize him, Sheesh!

U Said: Your cult certainly shows no "restoration of the Gospel", when it perverts the truths of that "good news".

I guess it's possible to pervert what was already perverted, but that's not what happened here. It's called a restoration when you go back to believing what was believed before the perversion happened

U Said: Why can't God use a council in 325 AD, if you believe that an angel came to Joe Smith in the 1800's?

Sure, he could have, but he would have said that was what he was doing (God never lies, and he doesn't have to be sneaky, he's all powerful, it's a trademark of his)

You should read the Records of the Council, as recorded by Constantine, here are a couple of Quotes from my page (you should have clicked...)

Finally Constantine, having conquered Licinius and become sole emperor, concerned himself with the re-establishment of religious peace as well as of civil order. He addressed letters to St. Alexander and to Arius depreciating these heated controversies regarding questions of no practical importance, and advising the adversaries to agree without delay.

And

The Council was opened by Constantine with the greatest solemnity. The emperor waited until all the bishops had taken their seats before making his entry. He was clad in gold and covered with precious stones in the fashion of an Oriental sovereign. A chair of gold had been made ready for him, and when he had taken his place the bishops seated themselves. After he had been addressed in a hurried allocution, the emperor made an address in Latin, expressing his will that religious peace should be re-established.

And

The emperor began by making the bishops understand that they had a greater and better business in hand than personal quarrels and interminable recriminations.

Lastly

St. Athanasius assures us that the activities of the Council were nowise hampered by Constantine's presence.

Good stuff huh? Go to the link for the full text, and have fun reading.

U Said: I guess old martin Luther didn't see any truth, either, according to your list of cults.

Sure Martin Luther was a very smart man, and I believe he was inspired in many of the things he did, Mormons even believe the Constitution to be an inspired document, so your nobody has truth but Mormons line is sagging a bit we believe truth is all over, but there's only one place with authority, and with enough truth to teach you what to do to gain salvation, that's a different story.

U Said: I have presented honest questions, and get the party line... milk!

The questions were answered honestly, and IMHO so completely that you are unhappy that you can't use them to attack Mormons.


No need to ask, it wasn't chicken

[DelphiUser]

U Said: Please answer yes, or no. I am not the cutesy one.

LOL! From my perspective you are.

U Said: 1. Do you believe there is more than one god?

AS I said Before, The Bible says "1 Cor 8:5 that there are gods many and lords many, I believe the Bible. I believe there are many who make gods of sports teams and cars and money, yes, I would say that anything that takes our focus off of God could be called a "god" to us. U Said: 2. I believe the Bible, just not your way of looking at it.

So it's only true according to your limited human understanding? Got it.

U Said: I don't try and use single notes to make a symphony.

It's the only way a symphony is ever written by men, God can write all the notes at once, or just play all the instruments at once and no sheet music would be needed, I am a man and need to do my notes one at a time, I am sorry if that offends you.

U Said: Is there more than one god, in Mormon theology?

No. God and Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in heart might mind and strength that to speak to one is to speak to all. This is the oneness spoken of by Jesus himself in John 17:22 Follow the link, reread the whole chapter to make sure the scripture is in context:

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

it's not a one note symphony, it's a very important phrase, Jesus himself is drawing an analogy between the oneness the disciples were to have and his oneness with the Fathers. Jesus drew this analogy, don't dismiss it for some man made dogma. God the father and Jesus Christ and the holy Spirit are one, yet three this is the knowledge that was lost in that council in Nicea.

U Said: Is Lucifer equal to Jesus?

Not ever.

U Said: Is Jesus actually the same as God?

In every way that matters yes, they have separate bodies, but are one in heart might mind and strength.

I could ask you equally difficult questions about the trinity, but I won't because I don't care about a false doctrine only about testifying of truth.

U Said: All of these things seem to be confused in the Mormon theocracy.

I understand, many have learned the Trinity so completely they can no longer see any other perspective, that is why Satan propagated such a doctrine.

U Said: I have read that faulty tome, your BOM... and I know the Bible.

I have read both many times, they are both good reads, your calling the Book of Mormon faulty does not make it so, my glowing recommendation will not make it a better read, or truer, it is what it is, I can offer a free copy to anyone who wants to read it, and I can link to my page on how to Put our religion to "The Test". now that I have done so, you cannot stop anyone who is curious from finding out for themselves by clicking the link and getting a copy for themselves. Freedom of Choice, it's part of God's plan for you, chose to know.

U Said: I have studied Classic Greek, in my quests.

Great, once I had learned Chinese, I keep slipping it into other languages as I learn them thus I have not been very successful since then, but from a standpoint of sheer numbers, I can preach the gospel to more people than you can...

U Said: I sat with a Rabbi, to better understand the Hebrew Old Testament.

Good for you, I graduated from a Buddhist monastery to better understand those I was to teach of Christ, you seem to seek knowledge for yourself, I seek it to share the gospel.

U Said: Joe Smith shouldn't hold the door for me. Gabriel has the key!

I don't care if the Door to heaven is held by Jesus, Gabriel, or Lex Luthor, or if it's a self serve door, as long as it opens to me, that's what matters.

Now let me ask you a few questions, if I may.

Is all truth contained in the Bible, and if it is, why did they need to have a council in Nicea?

If the Trinity, a defacto creation of the Catholic church is correct and of God, why aren't you a catholic?

Lastly, since you said you are not a Catholic, by what authority was the Church you go to organized, and where did that authority come from exactly?

Just curious, and I wanted you to see how difficult these "simple" questions are to answer in a straight forward way.

[Elsie]

The Bible does indeed say that, and it's talking about the coming change of the definition of God...

No; it doesn't!

Why can't you see GOSPEL when it is spelled out in front of you?

[Elsie]

I do indeed believe the whole bible, as long as it is interpreted correctly, ...

As long as it is 'interpreted' the LDS way!

There is no need to 'interpret' plain language, unless you want it to mean something that it doesn't.

[Elsie]

Oh Pulese! The God OF Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob, the holy one of Israel, Jesus my Lord, God. who is the God of the Old and New Testaments, in case you were not paying attention.

I have been paying attention;and YOUR 'god' has TWO physical bodies.

[Elsie]

Your proud boast tells me more than I wanted to know.

Can you not tell the differnce between PRIDE and ASSURANCE?

[Elsie]

       Got Ilk?        

[Elsie]

Right now I'm reading through the Bartimous Chronicles...

[Elsie]

Put our religion to "The Test".

It has been: and found wanting.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: The Bible does indeed say that, and it's talking about the coming change of the definition of God...

U Said: No; it doesn't!

I Said: Why can't you see GOSPEL when it is spelled out in front of you?

Let me project the next few posts... U Said: No; it doesn't!

I Said: Yes it does

U Said: No; it doesn't!

I Said: Yes it does

U Said: No; it doesn't!

I Said: Yes it does

U Said: No; it doesn't!

I Said: Yes it does * Infinity

U Said: Hey that's not fair!

This is how this looks IMHO to lurkers, Not exactly high brow conversation...

We believe the apostasy foretold in 2 Thes. 2: 3 happened, you believe it didn't We look at the evidence for that, you just assert that we are wrong. We invite people to examine the evidence and pray about it, you damn us to hell. It's not really a wining strategy and "No; it doesn't!" has never been a compelling argument.

Elsie, I hope you have a really good day.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: I do indeed believe the whole bible, as long as it is interpreted correctly, ...

U Said: As long as it is 'interpreted' the LDS way!

Um, we said Correctly, the An important Change from the Vulgate, The Johannine Comma for example is not a correct interpretation, nor is taking Greek where mia means "the first" or "at least one" and interpreting it to mean "only one" as your earlier quotation has it a correct interpretation.

U Said: There is no need to 'interpret' plain language, unless you want it to mean something that it doesn't.

I couldn't agree more so why are you quoting only one when the Greek plainly says at least one, or the first one wife? If Paul had meant only one mia would not be in the sentence. Why are you interpreting Paul's scripture to be out of agreement with the rest of the Bible?

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Your proud boast tells me more than I wanted to know.

U Said: Can you not tell the differnce between PRIDE and ASSURANCE?

Yes, I can tell the difference.