"Darn tootin'! Now you Texicans got a governor man enough to exterminate them lock stock and barrel Mormons?"
Posted on 04/21/2008 7:29:14 AM PDT by JRochelle
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Shortly after the raid began on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch, a group of Mormon missionaries sat down to eat at a restaurant here. A man shouted out "compound!"
"There was this guy. He held up a knife and yelled at us," said Elder Tyler Duffy from Orem.
Some of the fallout from the raid on the YFZ Ranch is being felt by members and missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While the FLDS Church is not connected in any way to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, some Mormon faithful have said they feel they are being found guilty by association.
"There are some people here that believe anything bad about Mormons and that's what they're going to do," said Charles L. Webb, who serves as president of the Abilene, Texas, stake.
The LDS Church's presence in this part of Texas is small. The Abilene stake covers an area 25,000 square miles in size with about 3,000 members. There are only two LDS chapels in San Angelo, but a number of Baptist and other evangelical Christian churches. It's the polar opposite of Utah, where the LDS Church is the dominant faith.
In repeated statements, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have differentiated between the two faiths and expressed disappointment that some news media outlets have lumped the two together.
"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called Mormons, do not practice polygamy and they have not practiced polygamy for over a century," Elder Quentin L. Cook, an LDS apostle, said in a video clip the church recently posted on YouTube. The LDS Church has said there is no such thing as a "fundamentalist Mormon," although an estimated 37,000 people who practice it consider themselves as such. Fundamentalists argue that the LDS Church has strayed from its original doctrine by abandoning the practice of polygamy in 1890.
Here in the Bible belt, many LDS members have had to explain the differences in their faiths — the practice of polygamy being the chief example.
Clinton Hudson, a student at Sonora High School, is a member of a Christian student fellowship. During a lunchtime meeting, he said one student said they should pray for the children taken in the raid. Another student said they should "pray for the Mormons."
"I approached her and said, 'They're not Mormons. They're fundamentalists. They broke off from the church' and described our history and how they broke off. It really helped a lot," Hudson said Sunday. "It was a great opportunity to get them to understand there's a difference between them and us."
Not everyone is interested in hearing their explanations.
Duffy said he was speaking with a man interested in converting to the LDS Church. After the raid, the man gave them back a copy of the Book of Mormon, saying he did not want to hear from them again.
"He didn't even give us time to explain," Duffy said.
As they go door-to-door, the missionaries have had to alter their introductions a little to clarify the differences between the two faiths.
"We're not from the church in Eldorado, but we share this message," said Elder Nicolas Librandi, from Murray.
Some have lashed out at the missionaries, blaming polygamy and allegations of child-bride marriages on the LDS Church. But some say there is more interest in the mainstream church, and its message.
"The purposes of God won't be frustrated," said Elder Ryan Bartley, from Carmichael, Calif.
Webb said he has discouraged members from helping out in the name of the LDS Church to avoid confusion between the two faiths, but said they should offer their services as individuals. The local Baptist congregations have contracts to provide relief services in disaster situations.
San Angelo 2nd Ward Bishop Jeffrey Bushman was contacted by a chaplain helping the FLDS women when they were being housed at Fort Concho. The women had requested copies of the Book of Mormon.
He sent them some copies.
"They didn't have anything or bring anything with them, I guess, and they wanted some scriptures and they asked for the Book of Mormon," Bushman said. "I didn't mind. We don't ever mind giving out (copies of the) Book of Mormon to people."
That’s because you accused me of polytheism, presumably because I don’t accept the Nicene Creed. Sigh.
Of the 3,000 “changes” to the BOM, I’m not familiar with all of them. Those that I am familiar with were mostly to correct punctuation, printers errors, etc. As I understand it, the translation as transcribed by Oliver Cowdery lacked punctuation. They don’t concern me.
On the other hand, the passage in 1 John cited by most believers in the Nicene Creed, called the Johannine Comma, is now universally recognized as having been added hundreds of years after the fact by a monk.
DU, "posting" doesn't mean starting "a thread" and you know it. So address the comment...have you or haven't you posted comments about a universal apostasy & the restoration?
But something Joseph Smith said over a hundred and fifty years ago, to people who believe he is a prophet, seems to make people here really upset in the here and now.
Let's "zoom" in, mapquest like, on the generations that followed Smith's "take" of Christianity:
1851: Smith's follower-Mormons include the "first vision" as part of "The Pearl of Great Price." (These Mormons shared Smith's worldview of Christendom as corrupt, powerless, wrong, and abominable).
1880: Smith's follower-Mormons vote at the Fall General Conference to sanction the Pearl of Great Price as LDS "Scripture." Thus, it was the Mormon generation who enshrined polygamy & practiced it to its greatest degree who elected to enshrine this "first vision" on par with the Bible ("Scripture"). (These Mormons shared Smith's worldview of Christendom as wholly corrupt, powerless, wrong, and abominable).
1890: Smith's follower-Mormons vote to reiterate its 1880 vote (which was needed because some slight changes had occurred in the PoGP). Thus, it was even the Mormon generation which began to back away from polygamy who enshrined this "first vision" on par with the Bible ("Scripture"). (These Mormons shared Smith's worldview of Christendom as wholly corrupt, powerless, wrong, and abominable)
20th century Mormons: The mark of these generations were one of the rise of its world-wide missionary work. (It was these generations of Mormons--particularly in the latter half of the century-- who decided that Smith's slander of the entire Christian church as being wholly corrupt, powerless, wrong, and abominable was worth worldwide circulation via the investment of billions of $ and millions of man-hours...they might as well as erected $billions of billboards & aired non-stop commercials to show you the impact it has had on slamming Christians).
21st century Mormons: Here we are, as you say, 157 years after the PoGP was first published...And, has there ever been any mustard-seed call from Mormondom to strike verses 18 to 20 from the level that purports to represent God's & Jesus Christ's opinion of historic & present-day Christianity? (No). Has this description of the Christian church ever been said by LDS general authorities to just be a simple "opinion" of Smith's? (No, they wouldn't dare; they would be diminishing what Mormons have labeled as "Scripture" for every generation for the past 128 years!)
My mission president paid his own way on his mission as a mission president. Tithing pays for buildings, tithing pays for welfare when fast offerings are not enough.
In the early 90s, an LDS bishop's "stipends" were higher than the average income a person makes today! ($40,000) The same would be multiplied several times over by a mission president who is traveling. So, indeed, the "tithe" is paid for a mission president's traveling expenses as he equips missionaries to spread this message door to door.
I noticed you didn't try to defend all the $ the LDS church has spent from its tithes on its curricula about apostasy & restoration. (I didn't even mention the Ensign magazine articles about the supposed apostasy--by folks like Brent Jackson...or the missionary lit originally produced by the church--don't tell me a paid LDS pamphlet writer "donated" his time)...
"Darn tootin'! Now you Texicans got a governor man enough to exterminate them lock stock and barrel Mormons?"
BTW, just so you're "clued in." If folks stop buying certain books, they wind up in the "no longer in print bin." So there's a greater effect of your $ than just whatever individual string tied back to your wallet.
If enough Mormons attached a "negative designation" statement about their $ not to be used for "quad" publishing, it would start to send a message that they don't want to pay for the open slandering of every Christian & every Christian church on earth. But, of course, in the hierarchical world of Mormonism, that would be a very radical thought.
Why, PolyBaptistries would be constructed overnight in multiple LDS temples if they ever captured the apostle John & those 3 Nephite disciples alive.
Those 4 elusive on-the-run AWOL dudes have been remiss in turning in their firsthand knowledge of genealogical names to help fill in all those centuries of blanks!
(So y'all be on the lookout. Joseph Smith says that John is "alive" -- and I know the LDS are coveting his genealogical data...If you see a man with, say, a 2,000 year-long beard, gray or silver, chainscars on his wrists...please contact SLC HQ right away...they have a vault with waterboard extraction technologies awaitin'!)
OK, just a few examples
1 Nephi 5, p. 52 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord …
[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text - http://www.irr.org/mit/1830bom-cs-p52.html]
1 Nephi 20:1 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, which swear by the name of the Lord …
2 Nephi 12, p. 117 … and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.
[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text- http://www.irr.org/mit/1830bom-cs-p117.html]
2 Nephi 30:6 (1840 edition) … and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white pure and a delightsome people.
(Later editions until 1981) … white and delightsome
(1981 to current edition) pure and delightsome
On the other hand, the passage in 1 John cited by most believers in the Nicene Creed, called the Johannine Comma, is now universally recognized as having been added hundreds of years after the fact by a monk.
Yes, the comma has been identified for a number of years. Are you aware that in Smith's inspired edition of the bible - the JST (aka the Inspired Version) - the Johannine comma is left intact? Apparently the revelation that Smith received maintained that piece of scripture unaltered.
Matt 19: 3-9 And the Pharisees came near to him, tempting him, and saying to him, 'Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?'
And he answering said to them, 'Did ye not read, that He who made [them], from the beginning a male and a female made them, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall be -- the two -- for one flesh so that they are no more two, but one flesh; what therefore God did join together, let no man put asunder.'
They say to him, 'Why then did Moses command to give a roll of divorce, and to put her away?'
He saith to them -- 'Moses for your stiffness of heart did suffer you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it hath not been so. ‘And I say to you, that, whoever may put away his wife, if not for whoredom, and may marry another, doth commit adultery; and he who did marry her that hath been put away, doth commit adultery.'
Okay, foolish lawyer, parse the teaching of Jesus! But know this, on several threads recently the teaching of Jesus has been given, this same passage, and the teaching condemns taking another wife unless the original wife has committed whoredom or is dead. PERIOD. Additionally, since Christians believe Jesus IS GOD and IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE, all the teachings found in the letters of Paul regarding leaders of the Church apply to marriage.
You might think yourself quite adept, to try and find exceptions to the Bible teachings, but you are ultimately playing Satan’s game in doubting God and seeking ways to parse Him as unfaithful to His teachings or double-minded. Take care you do not lose your immortal soul while winning a foolish parsing contest.
Don't know how I missed this - getting old. Mormonism is by definition polytheistic - you believe that there is a pantheon of gods out there, and though you claim to worship 'one' god, that is a understatement of mormon definition of the godhead, which under mormon doctrine is three separate gods serving together on a committee to run things. Do I need to cite McConkie and others who acknowledge mormon plurality of gods?
And DU accused me of filthy lucre?
3 ¶ The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?If I read correctly, divorce is an abomination to Jesus.
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Does said restoration and continuing revelation include the practice of polygamy? Your posts on the FLDS threads leave me wondering.
The verses in Matthew have to do with divorce, and do not specifically address polygamy. The next few verses also seem to say that Jesus is advocating celibacy. I don’t think you believe that, unless you are Catholic.
Also, Paul’s instruction was to specific church offices. The very fact that he gives that instruction suggests that there were other Christians who had more than one wife. He doesn’t condemn them.
And, do you think Abraham, Moses and Jacob were fallen prophets?
It makes me laugh when you take it upon yourself to pronounce judgment on my immortal soul. It sounds ridiculous and presumptuous.
See post 138.
Nice try, but I didn’t pronounce judgment on your immortal soul. Did you ‘feel’ judgment though? Take it as a hint from the One Who DOES pass judgment. And the parsing thingy is decidely your failing ... read what Jesus taught and do not stop your mind at divorce, for what Jesus taught applies to taking another wife ... without one of the two reasons He gave the act is condemned by Jesus, thus polygamy is condemned. How does it feel to be kicking against the teachings of The Lord of Life? Feeling like judgment is in the offing?... It isn’t coming from me, lawyer, it is coming from the One Who can touch your spirit when you try to make Him double minded or try to parse Him to allow your Mormon heresies to stand. Don’t ignore that ‘still small voice’ nagging at you, lawyer.
But not malum in se in your view or the LDS leadership's!
The LDS leadership had a "prophetic revelation" to set aside polygamy after the Supreme Court upheld laws against the practice, and when it became clear that Utah would not be admitted to statehood until it also banned polygamy.
If the Supreme Court declares laws against polygamy to be unconstitutional, will there be another "prophetic revelation" to restore it?
Once again, it was not just about divorce - but the whole concept of marriage that Jesus brought forward
The key thing to note here is that this argument fails if polygamy is acceptable! Jesus' point is that improper divorce does not nullify a marriage, and if the first marriage still stands, then a "second" marriage is adultery--and NOT simply 'polygamy'! This is very clear.
"The saying is hyperbolic-that is, it has exaggerated, intensified force: because God does not accept divorce as valid, any man who divorces his wife is not really divorced, and if he marries someone else, he commits adultery. No one else in antiquity spoke of divorce in such strong terms. (Because most Jewish teachers allowed polygamy, they would not have seen marrying a second wife as adultery, even if they had agreed that the man was still married to the first wife. But Jesus eliminates the double standard; a man consorting with two women is as adulterous as a woman consorting with two men.) [BBC, in.loc. Mark 10:11.
http://www.Christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html
I keep hoping someone will show me where it is forbidden in the Bible, but no one has been able to give me anything that will hold up to a rigorous examination.
You have been given the above numerous times now as well as other scriptures (1 Tim & Titus). As of now, you have not offered a rebuttal to any. All you have done is repeat the same old worn out story. Fact is any rebuttal you've made has been with deliberate, unsubstantiated mistranslation of the Greek.
Thats ok, keep posting this pabulum, you continue to live up to your nickname.
See my instructive comments to DU below regarding the far reaching consequences of Jesus' teaching on marriage
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2004714/posts?page=176#176
Also, Paul’s instruction was to specific church offices. The very fact that he gives that instruction suggests that there were other Christians who had more than one wife. He doesn’t condemn them.
This is an argument out of silence and is speculation. Divorce was common in the pagan world and this could well be reflected here. As the church leaders, they were to set the standard for the community. Therefore, in the absence of other NT instruction, ALL believers are to emulate the purity and scripturally-mandated characteristics of our elders--including the monogamous one.
And, do you think Abraham, Moses and Jacob were fallen prophets?
First off, Moses only had one wife - review the context of the 'cushite' term. Abraham and Jacob were blessed inspite of their behavior in this area. I know of no biblical passage that specifically commends them for being polygamous. Abraham's and Jacob's experience show that it was less than blessed given the issues that arose. In fact, to my knowledge, there is not one positive example of a polygamous situation in the bible.
The Spirit has borne witness to me over and over that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the church of Christ restored, with the same priesthood that existed in the original church, the same ordinances, and the same doctrine. It has also borne witness to me that the Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ and an ancient record. It is also apparent to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of what the Book of Mormon contains and a brain that it could not have been written by an uneducated farm boy in the early 19th century.
BTW, you called me foolish. Apparently you don’t accept Matt. 5:22.
BTW, to all, this particular wallow is getting tiresome. I’m off to do something more interesting.
Ancient record huh. Tell me, where are the cities the bom describes? The bom records a population in the millions from sea to sea with steel, armor, chariots, horses, elephants, wheat, etc. Where are these artifacts? I can show you the 1st century pavement that Jesus walked on in Israel - Can you show me the similar here?
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