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Posted on 04/17/2008 8:50:20 PM PDT by TeleStraightShooter
SAN ANGELO, Tex. — It took only a few minutes from the judge’s opening gavel Thursday morning for an emergency court hearing on the fate of 416 children taken by the state from a polygamist compound two weeks ago to dissolve into chaos. About 100 lawyers, for the children, their families and the state, were gathered in the main courtroom at Tom Green County Courthouse; another 100 or so were dispatched to the San Angelo city auditorium three blocks away, and connected to the main courtroom through a video conferencing system. Court exhibits had to be copied and carried between the locations by clerks. It took an hour just to enter the first exhibit into the record. Some lawyers complained heatedly to Judge Barbara Walther that the mass hearing, radically different from a typically intimate Family Court custody session, was unfair and benefited the state. Just as vehemently, Judge Walther denied their objections and said that all parties would be heard, no matter how long that took. “We have to balance the requirement in the statutes that this hearing must be held within 14 days,” Judge Walther said. “It’s not a perfect solution. I wish I could give you a perfect solution. There is not one.” She assured the lawyers for the children and their families, “You have not waived all of your rights.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Better picture than you might know. In the future, that affidavit and warrant are going to be critical.
Report from the front lines here, I write for a local issues Blog here in San Angelo www.conchoinfo.org Along with the new school bond and a police chief election (yes we elect chiefs, our voters treasure their right to be wrong) we have spared a little time to keep up with this.
There is a huge amount of misinformation flying around.
This is at most peripherally about polygamy. The marriages were not santified with a state license, but “spiritually”; in the eyes of the law, about the same as any other shack up. God forbid we try to resurrect the old cohabitation laws, there ain’t that many cells in the nation.
There were 24 boys out of 416 children. The boys are being held at a Boy’s Ranch. As I write this, 82 women whose children were under 6 are still with those girls, housed at the fairgrounds complex with the other children. I have to say, that is a statistically surprising ratio of male/female children. We are in the “win the lotto” range of probability such a ratio was arrived at naturally.
If this case proceeds, someone will have to conduct DNA testing on EVERYBODY, with matching to discover which child belongs to which Mother, fathered by which old goat. Texas does not require birth certificates for home births, if the child is not claimed as a deduction, SS# is not mandated. The records seized are spotty. At least some women have changed stories as to which kid belongs to whom. The men aren’t talking at all. The children, coming from a life of “sister-wives” and dormitory housing quite often couldn’t identify their genetic parents if they wanted to, and most of them don’t at this time.
Understand, while legal rape, under the age of consent, was by all credible evidence sytematic, in that culture it was also rarely forcible.
It is only since 2003 that this sect changed its “marrige” age from 18 to 14 after Warren Jeffs took over from his disabled Father Rulon Jeffs. In that at least some 14 year olds have been identified as mothers, the 14 line appears to have been crossed.
To say that San Angelo is overwhelmed is an understatement. There isn’t a motel room available within 90 miles. Over 300 local families are providing spare bedrooms for legal talent, nearly all pro bono, from all over the state coming in to act as ad litem representatives for the children. Happens our convention center is being remodeled and the city auditorium is being used as a courthouse annex, there is a simple lack of facilities large enough to accomodate a circus this large. I suspect the Pope may get more reporters, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Judge Barbara Walther is sharp, lots of family law background, and does not tolerate fools gladly. I wish her liuck, she’ll need it. Proceedings commence again this AM, we’ll know more later.
I do not make jests about child rape! And if you do you are sick.
“Leaving their Mormon sanctuary states may have been a huge mistake for them.”
One critical difference between the twin cities groups and here; despite a lot of initial fear, Warren Jeffs had ordered withdrawal from the gentile world. Had this group lined up it adult members, registered them and run candidates as they did in Colorado City or Hilsdale, they could have politically “owned” little Schleicher County and Eldorado in short order. The County has a 3A K-12 school with I believe, fewer total students than were removed from the FLDS compound. Honestly, until the raid, no one realized how many kids were out there, these people were that private.
And it would have brought a ton of heat on them earlier than this.
That's a horrifying number of potentially 'lost boys' ... really grotesque when one thinks about how many years this practise has been going on.
Excerpt:
What prompted her to leave was what she saw as a threat to her daughter.
“It was getting worse every year,” she said of the level of control and abuse. “That’s one of the things for me where I felt so urgent to get out was that my daughter was turning 14, and Warren was resetting the marrying age at that point to 14. This was in 2003.”
Whereas, if the sect separates mothers and daughters, sends the daughters to other women to raise--even other locations-- natural protectiveness is attenuated...
It would really help if you refused to contribute to the problem you described of the huge amount of misinformation flying around.
Your not suggesting your bigotry towards anything you can attach the label "Mormon" to justifies the suspension of constitutional & civil rights are you?
“Honestly, until the raid, no one realized how many kids were out there, these people were that private.”
Texas thought that they would find about 100, maybe up to 150 people in TOTAL!
I want nothing to do with polygamy but why do you think it is inferior to foster homes?
And just how do you propose you break up the other polygamist communities who are otherwise rather law abiding?
Don't tell us you have Janet Reno's number on speed dial.
You ask very good questions...one that I wish more folks asked...and one in which folks tend not to look @ the details mentioned in the Old Testament.
(1) The word "polygamy" isn't even mentioned in the OT, though several figures are mentioned as having multiple wives at the same time (Solomon, Jacob, David, a king in Jeremiah, some would say Abraham, and a few other minor figures). [When you see some folks' lists, keep in mind that they interpret "concubines" as "wives"...but if that was the case, why does the Bible distinguish between Solomon's 700 wives & 300 concubines?]
(2) Those taking on "many wives" are told it will lead your heart astray. That is clearly communicated in Deut. 17:17 & Lev. 18:18. In fact, Solomon, with 700 wives & 300 concubines, then becomes the "poster boy" for failing to heed that proscription. 1 Kings 11:3-4 mentions that this is exactly what happened to him...God judges him for this, and then takes away part of his kingdom (1 Kings 11:9-11). Sure, Solomon was as wise as they come...up until he did this. (We've all seen gifted men of God who don't finish strong)
(3) I only find one verse (2 Sam. 12:8) where it appears as God actually sanctioning or sourcing more than one wife. This was David. But even in this verse, the underlying Hebrew word is issah, which can be translated as either "wives" or "women." The same word is used in a passage in Judges which refers to "concubine" & also used in Genesis in reference to a female mate for animals heading on board the ark. My point is that the word there may simply mean (sexual) mate--not wife. Certainly, these women are later identified as concubines (2 Sam. 16:21-22)...concubines who actually wind up sleeping with David's son, Absalom, in broad daylight...hardly the behavior for "wives." (Bilhah, one of the servant women Jacob slept with, likewise slept with one of Jacob's adult sons, Reuben...Gen. 35:22).
(4) As for the earliest men who had concubines or slept with servant women/slaves (Abraham & Jacob), please note that this was done at the instigation of their wives, not God. This occurred in the pre-tech era of surrogacy, where if these women were to be true surrogates they were to become pregnant "the old-fashioned way." Household relationships during the baby competitions in Gen. 16 (Abram, Sarai, Hagar) and Gen. 30 (Jacob, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah) all deteriorated greatly. Jacob had "two wives," Leah & Jacob not because God told him to marry two but because of man's deception in the case of Leah...and God is not the author of deception. Zilpah, Bilhah and Hagar are almost always referenced as the slaves or servants of women...rarely as the servants or wives of these men. [IOW, if somebody is going to claim that polygamy is "just like" what they did in Genesis, then for that to be true, the "additional cohabiters" would need to be servants or slaves to the first wife...and that's just not true of 19th century, 20th century & 21st century polygamy.]
Two more things re:
(a) Abraham & Jacob...Zilpah is never referenced as a "wife"...and Hagar, even after sleeping with Abram once (that's all it's mentioned) continues to be labeled as a servant/slave by none other than Abram, Sarai, the Angel of the Lord (who some say is the pre-incarnated Son of God), Moses (Gen. 25), even the apostle Paul (Gal. 4:21-31), and Hagar herself. Sarai labels Hagar as a gift as a "wife" to Abram, but I question if a woman has the authority to "consent" on behalf of a slave. IOW, just as a minor cannot "consent" to either be given in marriage or to have sex, a slave has no rights to say "yes" or "no" to either marriage or to have sex.
(b) Please also note that the 10 Commandments speaking out against adultery had not even been brought to light for Abram and Jacob. (Although Gen. 2:24 was the known tradition for them--one wife)
As for post 10 commandments' scenarios where concubines are mentioned, please note the following:
(a) Many of these accounts do not indicate if all concubines were sexual bedpartners...Many LDS apologists insist that Joseph Smith didn't consummate all of his marriages...if that is true, I find it two-faced for LDS to insist that all Biblical characters slept with every concubine in their household (concubines were essentially slave/servant girls...why would we expect OT figures to always sleep with "the help?")
(b) Just because some men are mentioned to have more than one wife, it's not clear in some cases (like Moses) when their first wife died and when they took a second wife;
(c) No one can really build any kind of strong case that ties verses showing where God tells men to sleep with concubines (their case usually rests on David + citing the fact that God used men like Caleb, Gideon, etc.).
(d) If you take a look at the godly character (or lack of it) of those who had concubines--or the few specifically mentioned with multiple wives (a king in Jeremiah, for example)...most of them except men like David, Caleb & Gideon had major flaws or were judged by God. You mention "It seems some of these men were rather favored by God."...and I'm glad you put it exactly that way. Because in the Middle East arising out of the Old Testament tradition, what "grace" really means is to favor somebody. David is the best example of God favoring or "gracing" someone...here he was guilty of adultery and manslaughter, yet was used by God, anyway due to God's grace, which is unearned and is NOT given to us based upon our worthiness...so I kind of find it hypocritical for other folks to convey that God worked through David despite his adultery & manslaughter but God wouldn't have been able to favor & use David if he had multiple wives and/or concubines...that seems to be talking out of both sides of their mouths. The fact is, we are all sinners who are recipients of God's grace...and He uses us, anyway. Otherwise, I don't believe Jesus would have been the direct descendent of David's partner in adultery, Bathsheba. God works despite our sin to cover up our sin with Jesus' blood so that one day we'll be sin-free. If He would have wanted sin-free creatures, then He wouldn't have needed to send the Son of God to die on a cross, and the Pharisees' outward righteousness would have been just "dandy" to represent God.
“Provided they obey the law I think even you would have agree they have a right under the 1st amendment to raise their children as they see fit.”
You live in Utah supported Romney and as far as I know you could be one of the many Mormons supporting this polygamous child rape sect.
If the cult wasn’t breaking the law there wouldn’t be a discussion, but they are and your attempts at defending them are absurd.
Breeding children for rape is a bad thing, no matter where you live, Texas is not winking at the sect, they are protecting kids.
Thanks for your comments Colofornian. I do think what is going on at these farms is wrong. Where criminal activity has taken place, I do want the perps to be prosecuted.
I mentioned the Bible references to Old Testament prophets because I wanted to try to bring people’s minds back to some semblence of reality on the topic of polygamy.
The villification I see going on in this case is just rabid. I’d like to see it become a lot more rational.
Libertarian ping! To be added or removed freepmail me or post a message here.
re: 62
Are you trying to give shades of gray in rape situations? Some rape situations don’t cause pain and suffering, because it is “accepted” culturally, while other rape scenarios are emotionally disturbing becuase they are unexpected? WHAT??? Have you ever been a thirteen year old girl who is being raped by an older relative? If so, how could you not assume and expect it to be totally emotionally disturbing??? Please tell me I read that post incorrectly!
“Excuse me … how dare you interfere with my sexual proclivities. How dare you keep me from having sex with 12, 13 year old girls (after all, Mohammad did).”
i didn’t think that was ever proven and was in fact a lie the DOJ put out to cover their butts.
never the less, how do you justify the killing of those kids if indeed this abuse was going on?
My, my...words straight from the LDS "all apostates are bitter-exaggerating-liars" handbook. Would never have guessed you are from Utah. /s
Funny, I just saw another home page of a "tele" guy who is of the same mind-set.
Why am I not surprised?
Someone else said this, but it reflects my sentiments.
Except for the human tragedy, watching FLDS women and their feeble attempts to garner sympathy has been highly amusing.
There is no better example of unchecked Mormonism than the FLDS. The Salt Lake church can cough and sputter all they want about how there is no connection between the two groups but the most painfully obvious question is where do you think the FLDS got their ideas in the first place?
And most glaring is the celestial principle of Lying for the Lord (or perhaps Warren Jeffs). The only flaw in the plan is that the FLDS naivete has blinded themselves to the fact that the outside world sees right through it. Kind of like when your kid is telling you a tall tale and is oblivious that you caught on from the beginning.
The FLDS in their rhetoric have justified engaging in welfare fraud calling it "bleeding the beast". Getting the Gentile world to pay for more FLDS children is part of God's plan. After all, they are the superior race and it is no crime to deplete the sinners in their behalf.
The FLDS endlessly harp about the evils of America but now that the roaches are scurrying they say things like, "This is America. How could they take our children like that?"
Well, it looks like America really is evil after all then isn't it? Even so, they didn't mind all that evil money flowing from the evil tax payers.
Back to lying. When we see the FLDS we see liars. They have been lying to each other for so long they actually think they can lie in the same fashion to skeptics and expect it to fly. Such it is with self assured superior people. They have lost the wherewithal to see themselves objectively or to at least have the common sense NOT to go on camera.
The FLDS are an amplified version of the frustration we feel when attempting to deal with Salt Lake Mormons. They lie for the Lord with slightly more sophistication but it is not near enough to be convincing any more than their FLDS kissin' cousins.
And why does the SLC branch of the Church want so desperately to put distance from the red haired step children?
It's because the gig is up. The SLC brand had cornered the market on lies and now these breathy FLDS women have gone and ruined everything!
“There were 24 boys out of 416 children. considering your pejorative “reporting” is less than fully accurate, we know 24 teen age boys trucked out to a camp in Amarillo to be interned there, but how many boys are there under 13?.”
You state my reporting is wrong without specifying wrong on what, so I am at a loss to defend myself on that. The 24 number is at least fairly accurate, for the time the children and mothers were at Ft. Concho, they could be seen and taped playing outdoors from a distance by one of the 20-some satt. vans camped out with not a lot to do between action moments.
While I think ages of the boys were mentioned in one report, I truly didn’t worry on that figure, nor did I misrepresent it. The boys are most unlikely to be or have been pregnant. Nobody has claimed Jeffs and his Elders are inclined to sexually molest boys. CPS has claimed they are being raised in a manner to encourage the minors to replicate the predatory conduct of their male elders.
Here I do depart from report to speculate. Another story that has come out regards a major source of FLDS income. They regularly bid and win mostly public construction projects. The states are nearly always happy with the competent work and the low bid. Turns out FLDS is able to bid low as they have no labor cost. Nothing illegal, the labor is volunteer. While some of the “missing” males one would expect in a normal birth rate are likely to be examples of the Lost Boys reported by NBC among others, I suspect many of them are on those construction jobs, trying to “earn” a wife.
Seems that we do. How many children are going to lose their families because others in the complex broke the law?
The actual ratio is 24... of 416. Some of the boys were not initially identified as boys.
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