Posted on 04/15/2008 8:34:19 PM PDT by blam
Welcome back! Rested and tanned?
Well, all I know is what I read in the Bible. And the Bible says salvation is by the grace of God through faith in His Son for His glory. The Bible tells us we first must be born again by the Holy Spirit in order to know our salvation has been won for us by Christ alone. And this regeneration is an act of God, and not of ourselves.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 4-10"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Tanned, yes! Rested? Not if you count walking innumeral miles in 85 deg heat, day in and day out rested :>)
I had to get back to work to rest up. Next trip in 6 weeks. Going to Alaska on a cruise.
Amen.
Pretty sweet.
Don't fall off the boat. 8~)
No, just two vacations close together :>)
I’d have to work two jobs to rest up from vacations every six weeks :>)
Oh boy!... Can you explain why there are so many different interpretations of the Bible? Can you explain why a large number of very devout, diligent, knowledgeable Bible scholars have debates over the interpretation of different parts of scripture? You seem to be completely clueless that can possible you may be interpreting those verses incorrectly.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. "
John 3:14-17
"Well, all I know is what I read in the Bible". That's good, because you just read in the Bible that Christ was sent for THE WORLD, WHOSOEVER, not just some chosen elect. You have to twist scripture like pretzels to distort the clear meaning of these verses.
Cardinal rule #1. Never, ever build a whole huge doctrine on top of a few verses, ESPECIALLY when hundreds/thousands of other verses seem to contradict the few you are building on. This is so basic.
Christ Himself tells us He does not pray for the world, but only for those whom the Father has given Him. (John 17:9) That should tell you something.
You're missing the bigger picture. Read some of the following links for clarity...
And...
And...
And if these three pastors are not persuasive enough, read Christ's own words. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all men, effective only for the elect, according to God's will and not men's.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:9-10,20"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Salvation is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit at the direction of God alone, for His glory alone. If you believe in Christ it is because God has graciously removed your stony heart and replaced it with a heart of flesh, and given you new eyes and new ears and a renewed mind with which to understand what Christ has done for you on the cross.
All glory to God. From the beginning.
Now THAT’S a glorious summary of God’s glorious doctrine of election.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
and
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
That’s PRICELESS!
You are guilty of what you accuse us of, building doctrine on a few verses.
The question in your postinbg is who are the “whosoever.”
It's the elect.
The precious < /sarcasm> term free will only occurs and hand full of times throughout Scripture, and never in a soteriological way. Election, predestination, etc occur dozens of times, and always in the context of God's Sovereign Grace.
You want to know why there are different interpretations? Because people don't want to let God be God. Romans chapter 9 is written for people just like you who don't want to believe the doctrine of election. Paul is answering you. I suggest you take up and read.
Thats an absurd explanation. Only the truly arrogant always believe they and only they, have the one and only, true interpretation. Only they hear from God.
The precious < /sarcasm> term free will only occurs and hand full of times throughout Scripture, and never in a soteriological way.
In Revelations 2+3, Christ gives warnings such as:
4 "But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love. 5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent."
Clear as day, they must CHOOSE TO REPENT, or else they will not be saved. If they were elected and the "deal was sealed", THIS WARNING WOULD MAKE NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!! Jesus is not irrational and does not make irrational statements, the way some men's doctrines are/do.
Sorry, try again.
Since you obviously are not reading passages that I referred you to, I'll post it for you:
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
Now, using you superior exegetical skills, demonstate where in the above passage that anyone chooses God of their own free will.
I was right, it's cricket chirping time.
Scripture always has commands to do this or else.
You have not once shown Scripturally why some one would or would not fulfill those commands. Only though God's Grace can they do so.
” In Revelations 2+3, Christ gives warnings such as:
4 “But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love. 5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.”
“Clear as day, they must CHOOSE TO REPENT, or else they will not be saved. If they were elected and the “deal was sealed”, THIS WARNING WOULD MAKE NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!! Jesus is not irrational and does not make irrational statements, the way some men’s doctrines are/do.”
Having one’s candlestick taken away cannot be the same as losing one’s salvation:
a.) “No one can take them out of my hand”.
b.) The Lord is speaking to a local church, which does not have salvation; it has standing before God.
Therefore, having one’s candlestick removed means the hand of God will be removed from that church and she will have the form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
So, why on earth is that at all relevant here, when it is Christ Himself who says He will be doing the moving?
It’s part of the argument against your position that salvation can be lost - revoked by Christ or self. One can’t be born again again.
Not possible. :) The first thing that happens is that God gives His elect saving grace, that is, faith. In our sinful nature, we do not ask for this, it is simply given. Then, this faith necessitates the action of belief. We experience this phenomenon as "choosing to come to Christ", and it is very real to us. However, as you can see, from this paradigm there is no room for bragging. All the credit rightfully goes to God. I have done nothing worthy of merit.
If you were truly preselected, you would not have to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, otherwise, it would be an "action/effort' on YOUR part, and we know what COULD happen.
We simply do what God has preordained us to do within time. Of course, we don't know what that IS, so we experience and go through our struggles and decisions etc., but God is in control of the whole thing. Again, nothing to brag about as far as US alone.
The one thing that is so very self evident is that your #1 reason why men don't have a free will is that they then "COULD" get puffed up.
No, the #1 reason would be that God loves His elect so much that He is not willing to let their eternal destinies be decided by chance or the wholly unpredictable decisions of "wounded" souls. If God really did NOT love His children, then He would leave it all up to them. Some get in. Fine. Some go to hell forever. Too bad, so sad. Whatever happens, happens. That's not love, it's indifference. :)
I'm willing to [believe] that if a poll was taken of all those on FreeRepublic who do not believe in Calvinism, 99% of them would say they are saved by grace and grace alone, and not by their works.
No chance. :) While what you say is fully true, no Catholic or Orthodox could possibly agree to your statement, and I happen to know that they, combined, make up more than 1% of non-Calvinist Freepers. :)
Matter of fact, I've met probably thousands of people in various churches over the last many years, and I've NEVER heard anyone say/think other than that salvation was gift from God, according to His great mercy.
Oh, well sure. Just about everyone would agree to that. But it's a COMPLETELY different statement and idea than what you said above. "Grace alone" and "Gift from God" are apples and oranges, at least in my experience of how those concepts are discussed here on FR.
And another thing, if you have no autonomy, then praying ("Dear God in heaven, please, please") is just flat out ridiculous, since, then you are acting as if something YOU can do matters. It does not remember? Be consistent, you are just a programmed robot.
:) I never said what we do doesn't matter. It matters plenty, it just doesn't change God's mind or alter His plan for us. In fact, our praying is PART of God's plan for us. Remember when Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken away? Now, we would think that if anyone in the history of creation would deserve to have a prayer granted it would be Jesus, right? Yet, what happened? He didn't get what He (initially) asked for because the will of the Father was different. It is the same with us. When God's children pray, we get absolutely all of it that is in accordance with God's will. I'd say that matters.
LOL! Thanks, Gamecock! :)
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