Texas defends separation of polygamist sect kids from moms

MyWay ^ | 4-15-08 | MICHAEL GRACZYK

[tripod]

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) - State officials Tuesday defended their decision to suddenly separate mothers from many of the children taken in a raid on a polygamist ranch in West Texas. Texas Children's Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said the separation was made Monday after they decided that children are more truthful in interviews about possible abuse if their parents are not around.

[Melas]

I’d like some evidence concerning this so-called baptist polygamists. Please.

[smug]

Because of “privacy” and the fact “family court” is involved in all the DHS actions here we really don’t have any details about anyone

Well we finally agree on something, I knew we could.

[fr_freak]

I share your concern about possible rights violations, but I also share most SANE people’s concerns about young (sometimes very young) girls being forced into sexual relationships with older men.

At this point, those are mere allegations, apparently from an anonymous phone call. This is my point. If the police had launched an investigation, found evidence of abuse, then raided the compound with a fully documented warrant, I'd feel a whole lot better about it.

However, the police apparently acted solely on a phone tip. They had no evidence that any abuse occurred at the time of the raid. For all we know, they still don't have any evidence. Sure, it should be easy to find some evidence now, but law enforcement would always be easier if the police could arrest people without cause, seize assets and incarcerate children at will, but what kind of society would we have if they were allowed to do that (the correct answer is: police state)?

Furthermore, this sets a precedent that any police force can perform a full military raid based solely on a phone call. That means neighbors can harass neighbors, ex-girlfriends can have their ex-boyfriends arrested, but most importantly, the police can do whatever the hell they want to any of us any time. They can kick down our doors in the middle of the night and haul us away. The police are now limited only by their own moral boundaries. A crooked cop can simply claim to have received a phone call, and off they go.

The implications of this are staggering. Let's say five, ten years from now, when Christianity is finally fully marginalized, banned from schools, offices, etc., you and some like-minded people decide that you're going to build your own community where you can worship freely. You have your schools for the kids, a church, and you even grow some of your own food. The local busybodies don't like you, however, because they think Christians are mean and oppressive, so they start referring to your community as a "compound" and they speculate that there might be child abuse going on. After all, none of your kids are in the government schools, so the "potential" for abuse cover-up is there. Then, one day, a local bureaucrat decides he's had enough of your kind and orders a raid based on an anonymous tip. Next thing you know, all the women are in one holding area, the kids are in another, and the men are in jail. Sounds like the Soviet Union to me, but support of this raid, in the manner in which it was conducted, with the flimsiest of excuses used, is nothing but an embrace of the Soviet method.

Sound paranoid? It is, I suppose, except that we've seen the most horrendous changes occur in the last 40-50 years which have brought about things that we never thought we'd see in this country: government can take your property to turn over to a private company to build a mall, all hints of Christianity are banned from public schools, city buildings, etc., homosexuality is now a protected behavior (and receives preference), and on and on, and each time these changes occur, it is because people allow them to occur a little at a time, thinking that taking a stand against them is just being paranoid.

[DoughtyOne]

Melas, they had to base that warrant on something. They based it on the phone call. They used the person making the complaint as the reason for the warrant. If that person doesn’t exist, someone is going to get charged with a felony.

[Melas]

No. Provided there was a phone call, they had to investigate. Child abuse is an exemption to almost every legal principle you know, in the state of Texas. Almost all privileges are suspended etc.

Making a false report of child abuse carries an additional penalty here in Texas because it is indeed fast-tracked. If you have to make a false allegation, make it about anything else and your penalty will be halved.

EVERY report must by law be followed up on, even ones made anonymously or via hearsay. Hearsay testimony is allowed in child abuse cases in Texas courts btw, yet another exemption. See 261.301 and 261.304. of the Texas family code for more details.

[nomorelurker]

It's hard to remember that in this case there are 2 tracks, 1 criminal, 1 Civil (child custody). Very different rules apply to each track. I have made no secret that I think the criminal track in is trouble because of the affidavit supporting the initial search warrant. The child custody case has no such problem. It may have other problems but an invalid warrant will not be one of them.

[Melas]

True that.

[mouser]

Have you seen these pregnant minors

I have seen quite a few pictures of the kids being loaded into the buses to take them out of the compound and i did not see any young girls that looked pregnant.

I would of thought if there was the authorities would make sure the pictures of them getting loaded would of been everywhere.

If anyone saw any pictures that show this please post the picture of a link to it will stop a lot of fussing.

[DoughtyOne]

I beleive you could be right about the criminal charges. I do have questions about the civil charges though.

In every child abuse case I have heard of, the offending dad is taken out of the home. The mothers and the children are not forced out.

Why didn’t the authorities get restraining orders on the men, and leave the mothers and children in their homes? There were plenty of places on the farm where the children could have been questioned in private. They could have then been removed from the farm if circumstances warranted it. Mothers could have been relocated if they desired to be.

The men could have fended for themselves, or have been put up in a dorm setting a lot easier than it is going to be to house the kids.

And I am gravely concerned that foster homes for 400 are being set up, without any due process whatsoever.

We are seeing these families destroyed, on the supposed whims of a non-existant witness/victim.

I have only heard of two men having been arrested so far. Now we have 400 kids stripped from their parents for what looks like could be a long time. And for what? Nobody really knows, and I include the officers and case workers in that group.

What charges have been filed so far? How can they hold all these kids without charges having been filed against their parents?

[ricks_place]

Have you seen these pregnant minors if so who got them pregnant, were the fathers also minors???

I am flummoxed by your aggressive comments and defensivness for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The criminal conviction of the FLDS prophet is telling. You never wrote your affiliation for FLDS; what is your connection? The white 150-pound child rapist, Warren Jeffs, should have an interesting prison stay.

Fundamentalist prophet Warren Jeffs sentenced for forcing teen to marry

• Jeffs, 51, was convicted of two counts of rape as an accomplice...
• A judge sentenced polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs to five years to life Tuesday for his role in the arranged marriage between a 14-year-old follower and her 19-year-old cousin.
• Sitting in jail awaiting trial, the leader (FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs) of a polygamous sect renounced his role as a prophet and said he had been "immoral" with a sister and daughter decades ago, newly unsealed documents show.

Polygamist sentenced to 45 days for having sex with underage girl he married

• Kelly Fischer, the first of seven members of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints (FLDS) to be tried for plural marriages to minors
• a jury convicted Fischer last month of sexual contact with a minor and conspiracy for having sex with a 16-year-old.
• The sentence disappointed authorities in Kingman

Among Jeffs' possessions, a letter to his followers swearing them to secrecy

• Warren Jeffs was carrying a list of safe houses and a written decree banning members of his flock from disclosing his whereabouts
• FLDS members are in jail for refusing to testify before a federal grand jury

Warren Jeffs and the FLDS

• Rulon T. Jeffs, the group's prophet for the previous 15 years, died at the age of 92, leaving an estimated 75 widows and 65 children to mourn him.
• Spiritually close to 75 Ladies!
• The prophet is considered to be God's mouthpiece on earth
• A significant means of prophet power is derived from his ability to punish followers by reassigning their wives, children and homes to another man.

Man sues sect leader Warren Jeffs for information about family allegedly taken from him

• A lawsuit against the head of a polygamy-practicing church demands information about the family that a Wendell Musser contends was taken from him as punishment for his lack of faith.
• Musser was refused contact with his family and was later told that his wife and son had been assigned to a more worthy man in the church.

[wita]

My wife disagrees a bit with my premise, and blames the mothers as well for being complicit. If that is true, brainwashed mothers being part of the problem, in allowing their children to be abused by adult males, that is one more issue, yet unproven. I have a better opinion of mothers in general to think most of them are brainwashed. Ever tried that with a woman?

None of this squares with the way this came down in Texas, and the original raid and the reasons for it have expanded far beyond what the State thought they were getting into. Polygamy was not an issue, and unfortunately that, most assuredly, is THE issue. If state and federal governments had not somehow accepted the situation for over fifty years, and set the precedent that they could live the way they liked, this may not be happening.

Unfortunately it is happening, and at the moment from my position, the innocent are the sufferers. Hopefully things will work out for everyone.

[ricks_place]

Newspapers often err and lawmen sometimes err...but this raid does not appear to be a mistake. Forced marriage of anyone especially minor girls must end.

Affidavit details temple bed, polygamist unions-USA TODAY

SAN ANGELO, Texas — More allegations of abuse were revealed Wednesday in the case of a polygamist sect whose Texas ranch was home to hundreds of girls and children.

An affidavit unsealed by Texas State District Court Judge Barbara Walther said that officers had found records at the Yearning for Zion Ranch indicating one man had been married to more than 20 wives....

One resident said that one girl "has four children and … is under 16 years of age." The husband has two wives, and the mother of the four children does not even know her true age, according to the affidavit.

[Centurion2000]

Personally, I’m just grateful it didn’t all end in a big fireball.

The next one probably will.

[Rightly Biased]

See post 152

[DoughtyOne]

My wife disagrees a bit with my premise, and blames the mothers as well for being complicit.  I'm not convinced this is untrue.  I do believe that a certain amount of willing complicity and or complicity by fear was probably involved.  It still stands to reason, that if the men were removed, damage caused under the most serious allegation would be prevented for a period of time to facilitate further investigation.  Right of passage would be limited for a period of time, children to remain on the property, women to be accompanied for food shopping and other critical needs.

If that is true, brainwashed mothers being part of the problem, in allowing their children to be abused by adult males, that is one more issue, yet unproven.  It is unproven as of this time.  I do think women who played along should face the music, to some degree.

I have a better opinion of mothers in general to think most of them are brainwashed. Ever tried that with a woman?  Yes.  It worked for a while.  Oh, sorry guys, am I not supposed to admit that?  LMAO Some of these group setting dynamics can have false imprisonment (if that's the proper term), which means that the moms couldn't leave with their children or some such.  If that were the case, it would be tough to throw the whole book at them.  Still, they could have probably gotten a phone call out.  Humans being like they are, we should take note that these women may not have had much in the way of familiy for friends on the outside.  Their recources may have been extremely sparce or non-existant.

None of this squares with the way this came down in Texas, and the original raid and the reasons for it have expanded far beyond what the State thought they were getting into. Polygamy was not an issue, and unfortunately that, most assuredly, is THE issue. If state and federal governments had not somehow accepted the situation for over fifty years, and set the precedent that they could live the way they liked, this may not be happening.  I'm not sure why it was allowed to fly under the radar.  The farm being such a self-sufficient enterprise, there wasn't a real opportunity for people outside to know precisely what was taking place there.  And that would be my only thought as to why it was allowed to continue.  Polygamy being wrong, it does seem like that would have been cause for action alone.  Still, it does appear they were only hooking up under religions marriages, and not with documented state involvement.

Unfortunately it is happening, and at the moment from my position, the innocent are the sufferers. Hopefully things will work out for everyone.

I agree here.  It's rather perplexing what is taking place.  On the one hand none of us wants to see young girls soiled or abused in this manner.  On the other hand we have seen the authorities blow it big time in cases like this, and aren't willing to grant one inch more rope than what is legally necessary to get this situtiaon under control, and the offending parties prosecuted.  As for CPS, it is one of the most troubling agencies around the world IMO.  I have read some absolute horror stories perpetrated by these agencies, and every employee seems to think they are the right hand of God.  It would be unfair not to admit that there is a need for agencies like this, unfortunately.  It would also be unfair not to admit that one hell of a lot of psycological scarring and family destruction can be perpetrated by one well meaning employee on a mission from God.

[Centurion2000]

The disgusting thing is that poppiemike has a point. I despise the people that did this. The 'men' running this place make me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately, we have CPS and the 'authorities' running roughshod over way too many people's civil rights and a precedent for crushing a religion is being set here.

I agree that this religion is pretty sick, twisted and evil, but dropping that kind of power into the hands of CPS bureaucrats instead of some kind of national Amendment process?

I'd rather see the compound burned to the ground than allow that possible level of unchecked government power and abuse.

[Centurion2000]

Furthermore, this sets a precedent that any police force can perform a full military raid based solely on a phone call. That means neighbors can harass neighbors, ex-girlfriends can have their ex-boyfriends arrested, but most importantly, the police can do whatever the hell they want to any of us any time. They can kick down our doors in the middle of the night and haul us away. The police are now limited only by their own moral boundaries. A crooked cop can simply claim to have received a phone call, and off they go. ,

I think a lot of people are not thinking this through. What these people did was horribly wrong, and it should be investigated. BUT how it is being investigated and prosecuted may be the worse crime, if this can become SOP for any police force in the nation.

[najida]

I’m somewhere in the middle...I see it as a fake, slavery using the sheild of religion. It’s brilliant really-— child abuse and sexual subjugation under the protection of the bible and cross....pure genius because folks get really testy about this.

Do I think a lot of things have been done wrong? Of course... but I also don’t think this is a them against us situation either. I don’t think we know everything that’s happened.

IOW, I don’t think everyone who removed those people from the compound are jackbooted thugs. Maybe I live in nice nice land, but all the CPS folks I’ve worked with where for the most part, decent folks who knew just how bad the world could be for kids. And I’ve said this before, kids never forget when adults let them down.

Possibly something can be learned. And honestly, if one woman walks away and has a free life, then something good may come of it. But right now, I have a wait and see attitude. And I’m praying, very very hard.

As for burning it-— please. It needs to be destroyed (Most if not all of the folks are gone so have at it).

[mouser]

See post 152

Sorry a story in USA today is not proof.

when I went to read the article it mentioned the arrest warrant of barrows I believe the name is the man who was claimed to be at Texas ranch beating and abusing the person who called in to the hot line. I read where he has met with Texas rangers and proved he was not in Texas they did not arrest him.

So far everything i have seen is not proof it is a good story the various bunches are using to sell papers and magazines.

I still think with the pictures if there was a 12-14 year old girl pregnant the authorities would of been sure her picture getting on the buss was taken.

was there bad things going on given the history of this bunch probably were they as bad as being claimed not sure will wait and see what evidence they have in court.

[smug]

I am flummoxed by your aggressive comments and defensivness for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I am flummoxed by your ability to read things I have not written. I do not defend The Church of Latter day Saints, Mormon's, whatever you want to call them it is my opinion that they are a cult, outside the teachings of Christ. I am just saying in this case, this particular case no evidence has yet been shown. If you read my post I stated that their guilt or innocents has not been proven either way. Statements by the authorities have been given to the Media, that is not evidence. Statements have been given by the cultist to the Media, that is not evidence. Let me say this as clearly as I can---trial first, hanging second. Having said that I am married to only one woman, and have no second, third or forth wife or concubines. Nor do I want them, pleasing one woman is hard enough.