Posted on 04/09/2008 9:33:38 AM PDT by Domandred
Okay then throw out the 4th Amendment for everything else too just to protect the children.
When you throw it out for one thing you give permission to start throwing it out for others.
But they have other, younger, visibly pregnant girls, so the location and identity of the original caller is rather a moot point. I believe the original warrant was just to search the compound, and they didn’t have to look far to find all the evidence they needed, without finding or identifying the specific girl who called. The warrant authorizing the removal of all the children followed the initial phase of the search, in which a number of very young pregnant girls were found. It’s not like they removed these children without any evidence.
What if the bad guys walk because of the way the warrant was served?
What if people that weren't committing rape and child abuse are locked up because of the way the warrant was served?
Would those muster the outrage?
So, you have heard a recording of the calls? Link to your info?
2. The people throughout this cult are so inter-related that many have the same last names.
Yep, they are called families.
3. Joni Holm, believe me, is not a cultist living on the compound or she would have no power to help children leave the cult. She is, through her efforts, familiar with the people, and is helping to clarify a tragic, confused situation.
So, if she knows so much about "The girl's husband is in his late 30s, is related to Dale Barlow, shares his surname and has a similar sounding first name, Holm said. " why did she not know where the guy in his 30's is? Why did she take five days to tell the LEO's the guy they named isn’t there and the guy they want is really in his 30's? And again, how's about a link to your inside info?
4. Some of these kids don’t even know who their own fathers are.
So, we are talking about what, about 1/4 of Detroit? Chicago?
And how many don't know? Two? Ten? All of them? Source please?
You failed to get the facts in this article right (Holms), and yet you criticize the people who failed to get a name correct when whispered over the phone by a terrified 16 year-old girl?
I did not "fail" to do anything because what you are saying is not in the article. Where did you get your info? What makes you believe your speculations are "facts?"
And you know what? I really don't care where you got it, even though I believe you are just speculating and their are no sources at all for what you are purporting to be factual. It has nothing to do with what I am talking about and has no bearing on the validity of the warrant.
Which is what I am talking about.
fruit of the poisonous tree
n. in criminal law, the doctrine that evidence discovered due to information found through illegal search or other unconstitutional means (such as a forced confession) may not be introduced by a prosecutor.
The theory is that the tree (original illegal evidence) is poisoned and thus taints what grows from it. For example, as part of a coerced admission made without giving a prime suspect the so-called "Miranda warnings" (statement of rights, including the right to remain silent and what he/she says will be used against them), the suspect tells the police the location of stolen property.
Since the admission cannot be introduced as evidence in trial, neither can the stolen property.
They are in the process of trying to identify and find the man that the girl caller referred to, but his identity is not germane to the overall case. There is overwhelming evidence, amassed over decades, that this group does exactly what the Texas authorities are alleging. This group has a history of move people across state and national borders to escape arrest warrants, including the example of their current “prophet” who was caught after several months of evading a federal warrant, and now sits in a prison cell in Utah after being duly convicted of the sort of abuse the Texas authorities are alleging. Anyone who is trying to claim that this mass removal of women and children was triggered by one phone call from an unidentified female is either ignorant or deliberately lying in defense of this sick cult.
The longer this story goes on, the more likely it appears the government is “fishing” for charges.
If these people weren’t white Christian polygamists, everyone will be screaming against the LEO for violation of the constitutional rights of these American citizens.
This is very troublesome to me. While I utterly reject their religious beliefs and practices; it does appear the government is violating their rights, as Reverent Lovejoy’s wife will say, “for the sake of the children.”
You don’t need to be a constitutional expert to see something is very wrong with the actions of the LEO in Texas on this issue and they are vulnerable to a whopping class action lawsuit.
In the meantime, thousands of Muslim girls, some as young as nine, are being forcefully married to middle-aged Muslim men in cities across the land. And yet, we hear NOTHING about them. Hmmm, sure looks like a double standard to me.
Yes, I remember that from law school. It won’t be an issue in this case. The authorities conducted their initial, cursory search of the compound under a lawfully issued warrant. They found plenty of evidence during that search to get warrants for further searches and for the removal of the children. The identity or location of the initial caller became moot as soon as they went in and spotted several obviously pregnant minors.
I disagree. I think it is a major issue that will be exploited to the largest extent possible. Everything they saw, heard or found could be thrown out.
Warren Jeffs is a scumbag and he is probably guilty in the Arizona case (which is still pending), but he was not guilty in the Utah case.
Warren Jeffs was not "convicted of the sort of abuse the Texas authorities are alleging". He was convicted on accessory to rape. A rape that is still in question whether or not it actually happened, and no charges have been filed for the rape itself.
The girl's parent's were the guilty ones on accessory in that case and they have no charges filed against them. The girl's "husband" is the guilty one on the actual rape, yet no charges are filed against him.
Utah authorities went after Warren Jeffs. They didn't seem to much care about the actual criminals (the girl's parent's and "husband") in that case who are still free.
You really should desist this irrational emotionalism. ALLEGATIONS of child rape is the issue; not demonstrable proof. Last I heard, people are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Furthermore, it is insane to arrest and accuse an entire religious community comprising of over 600 people, and FORCEFULLY REMOVE over 400 children from their families, just because an unidentified girl made charges over the phone.
You are quick to condemn just because these people’s religious beliefs are different than yours.
THINK! What if this happened to you? Would you like it if a girl in your neighborhood made anonymous charges and you and a hundred other families had their children taken away?
Sure, these people had weird religious beliefs. Sure they were polygamists, instead of the Western-society approved monogamy, co-habitation, adultery, threesome, swapping, swinging, transgendered, homosexual, and Muslim polygamous and child-bride sexual relationships. This still doesn’t make the government’s actions right.
Do you doubt if they were anyone else - this NEVER would have happened??? If only they were a homosexual commune ... If only they were Muslim fundamentalists ... If only they were a hippie commune in Oregon ...
Don’t let your religious bias cloud your judgment - today it is these Mormon fundamentalists whose constitutional rights are violated - tomorrow it could be you.
Wrong, what these people are doing is illegal in every state in the united states.
So it's okay to ignore the 4th Amendment and proper search and seizure when suspicion of something illegal is going on?
There’s so much inbreding you would almost need everyone’s DNA to sort it all out. It doesn’t matter what the name was, there’s a lot wrong there and finally someone is doing something about it.
NO, many of the underage girls had babies, so both babies were taken.
The jury in Utah found Jeffs guilty, and in light of the mountains of other evidence, that’s good enough for me. What Texas authorities are alleging is there is systematic sexual abuse of minor girls in this group, at the direction of the “prophet”, and now that he’s in prison, at the direction of those male leaders who are now controlling the group in accordance with Jeffs previous directives.
It’s often difficult to identify or find specific individuals in this group, and most won’t testify even when they are found, so it’s not surprising that Utah authorities didn’t try to hold the girl’s father responsible (the mother would have been just as much a victim as the girl). Last I heard, the “husband” was indeed facing criminal charges in Utah.
“In the meantime, thousands of Muslim girls, some as young as nine, are being forcefully married to middle-aged Muslim men in cities across the land.”
What US cities?
True, so the government will need to have DNA tests done to determine who is the wife of who and who is the child of who, and all will need to be before the grand jury, and the can of worm will still be opened.
Pretty scary that so many see no problem with it.
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