Posted on 03/25/2008 12:48:56 AM PDT by Exton1
19,000 insurgents killed in Iraq since '03 By Jim Michaels - September 2007 ?
More than 19,000 militants have been killed in fighting with coalition forces since the insurgency began more than four years ago, according to military statistics released for the first time.
The statistics show that 4,882 militants were killed in clashes with coalition forces this year, a 25% increase over all of last year.
The increase in enemy deaths this year reflects more aggressive tactics adopted by American forces and an additional 30,000 U.S. troops ordered by the White House this year.
U.S. and Iraqi forces launched several large offensives aimed at crippling al-Qaeda since the arrival of more troops starting in February. The U.S. military says, however, there has been an increase in suicide attacks in recent days.
The size of the insurgency in Iraq has been difficult to measure and is fluid, making it hard to determine what impact the deaths have had on the insurgency in Iraq.
Last year, Gen. John Abizaid, then commander of military forces in the region, estimated the Sunni insurgency to be 10,000 to 20,000 fighters. He said the Shiite militia members were in the "low thousands." The U.S. military hasn't publicly provided any recent estimates.
There are 25,000 detainees in U.S. military custody in Iraq, according to the military. The numbers of enemy killed and detained would exceed the estimate given last year of the size of the insurgency.
Since the insurgency began after Baghdad fell in spring 2003, 19,429 militants have been killed in clashes with coalition forces, statistics show. The numbers do not include enemy killed during the invasion.
The statistics, provided at USA TODAY's request, were retrieved from a coalition database that tracks "significant acts." Militants are identified in the database because they are linked to "hostile action," said Capt. Michael Greenberger, a Freedom of Information Act officer in Baghdad. There is no way to independently verify the data.
"The information in the database is only as good as the information entered into it by operators on the ground at the time," Greenberger said. "Follow-up information to make corrections is done whenever possible."
The U.S. military rarely discusses the numbers of enemy dead, fearful of raising parallels with the Vietnam War when the U.S. military's reliance on "body counts" led to allegations of inflated figures because of political pressure to show results.
Today, U.S. commanders consider the number of enemy deaths a poor measure of progress in an insurgency and say there is no pressure to exaggerate. "The big difference is the command climate in Vietnam encouraged inflation," said T.X. Hammes, a retired Marine colonel and insurgency expert. "The general command climate (in Iraq) is: 'Don't exaggerate.' "
The military's new counterinsurgency manual emphasizes political and economic solutions to eliminate the conditions that breed militants. Those actions are considered more decisive than combat.
"You can't kill them all," Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of the American division responsible for northern Iraq, said in a recent interview.
The insurgency has been a mixture of Sunni groups, such as al-Qaeda, and Shiite militia extremists.
The enemy casualty numbers also reinforce the one-sided nature of battles on occasions when militants attempted to directly confront American forces.
The deadliest month for militants was August 2004 when thousands of militia fighters loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr clashed with American forces in Najaf in southern Iraq. That month, 1,623 militants were killed. The U.S. military lost 53 troops in fighting during the same time.
bttt
Not included of course the 15,000 + killed soldiers, guards, militiamen and thugs from Saddam’s forces in the three weeks of 2003. Also not included the thousands of Sunni and Shia militants and terrorists killed by each other 2004-2006.
OH NO! Are you sure they weren’t part of a wedding party,
All things considered - a poor kill ration between theirs and ours...
I had hoped it wouldn’t be this bad.....
This is less than 4:1, post invasion - which is lousy.
Not true. This is the first time we've had to deal with this type of operation in a LOOOONG time. Also, TTPs for one geoloc are not the same as others. There can be similarities, but not the same. Insurgent behavior also varies from geoloc to geoloc. We are now starting to get inside their heads. That’s what's making the difference these days.
See my book (paperback ed has the #s), "America's Victories: Why the U.S. Wins Wars and Will Win the War on Terror."
See post 7. Numbers are way, way off.
See post 7.
See #7.
Q: What do you call 19,000 dead insurgents?
A good start!
#7 is correct. Numbers are way, way higher.
Your numbers seem reasonable. My guess would be a kill ratio of at least 10 to 1.
Even then, this doesn't at all take into account all those bomb makers who blew themselves up without us knowing about it, all the guys vaporized in air strikes who didn't leave a body, and all the guys like the one on the youtube video who fired a malfunctioning mortar round and just disappeared when it misfired!
I think I know the answer, LS, but do your numbers include:
1. Ex-Jihadists in Somalia, Ethiopia, etc?
2. Ex-Jihadists inside Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, etc?
3. Ex-Jihadist-on-Ex-Jihadist casualties?
4. Vigilante justice creating ex-Jihadists within Iraq?
5. Ex-Jihadists in such “remote” places as the Phillipines?
This is a global war, and I believe that even your very carefully drawn numbers understate the extraordinary progress that has been made.
Add to this the remarkable advances on many other fronts, including shutting down bank accounts, cutting off communications, restricting travel/movement, sowing dissension within the ranks, and so forth. I’m also certain that we are yanking their chains in ways that saps like me just can’t even imagine. At this point, the jihadist’s life must be full not only of abject misery but also perpetual panic, incoherence, confusion, and all manner of other adjectives.
It must be the case — it must — that we are just beating the crap out of these losers.
Decades from now, when definitive histories of this era are finally written, I believe that fighting the war in Iraq has been like shooting fish in a barrel; and that the sort of shock and awe that defined the original invasion in fact carried through and became standard operating procedure.
I would be interested, LS, in even a wild conjecture on your part for a “global” set of numbers of jihadists killed, wounded, captured, etc.
And then I would remind you and others that it was actually not that long ago that a million or more men in Iraq and Iran killed each other in a decade-long war. Most of those men would be in their 30s, 40s, and 50s now, had they survived. But they are extinguished, as are another million or two men and women killed subsequently by the brutal regimes in those two countries.
There is a reason why Islam accommodates polygamy. There is a dire shortage of males in many regions throughout the Middle East.
It is simply breathtaking to contemplate the extent to which the Arab world is hell-bent on its own destruction.
19,000 insurgents killed in Iraq since 2003! 19,000! The level of cluelessness is so pathetic it is laughable.
Globally, I think you can double the high-end estimates, maybe 400,000 killed, 1-2 million disabled, demoralized, quit in disgust, or captured.
Our forces have the ability and destructive resources to inflict at least a 1000:1 or better kill ratio on our enemy..
It disturbs me greatly that we aren't.
Our enemy should know and expect a VERY destructive scenario when they challenge us on the battlefield - anywhere on this planet...
We should NOT be sending our young warriors to the enemy's neighborhood to fight a war by THEIR rules or complying with THEIR tactics.... That plays into their strengths.
We're the 800 pound gorilla...
We should demonstrate that occasionally..
True, but in any guerrilla war, those numbers don’t hold up. I read once that it cost $1 million per every Indian killed in the Plains Wars. (However, it’s also a myth that every other wagon train was attacked: one study put the total number of settlers-—not counting soldiers like Fetterman or Custer-—killed at about 600, for the entire 1800s).
"Getting into the heads" of an enemy who represents the militant faction of a "cult" containing over 1 BILLION followers -- only works if one removes enough heads to conduct a very widespread "analysis"...
History has proved - especially with the Islamist - that they, their families, their cities, their nations must pay a very substantial cost to sway them from their centuries old march against the non Muslim world...
Their "heads" have already been occupied -- there is no room for reason...
I'm convinced only catastrophic consequences will force them to put down their swords and start covering their heads..
To hell with getting "inside their heads" --- Take their heads...They above all others on the planet UNDERSTAND that, don't they?
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