P-67 Bat
Posted on 03/11/2008 8:17:16 AM PDT by Joiseydude
DAYTON, Ohio (AP) - The world's first attack aircraft to employ stealth technology is slipping quietly into history.
The inky black, angular, radar-evading F-117, which spent 27 years in the Air Force arsenal secretly patrolling hostile skies from Serbia to Iraq, will be put in mothballs next month in Nevada.
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, which manages the F-117 program, will have an informal, private retirement ceremony Tuesday with military leaders, base employees and representatives from Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.
(Excerpt) Read more at wtop.com ...
Yes, my thoughts as well. These radar types, at least in my cursory reading, looks eminently bulky and easily neutralized.
Incorrect. The F-117 was trackable from day one on low band PPI radars, particularly on "antiquated" Soviet equipment. The F-117 was designed to reduce the probability of lock on from high frequency fire control radars. That was easily discernable from the original emissions and susceptibility test data and the British were tracking them from the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm using low band PPIs.
P-67 Bat
That’s a helluva Studebaker!
I seem to remember the ‘dead bat’ thing in Ben Rich’s book about the Lockheed Skunkworks, but it’s been a long time since I read it.
I think the shape of the F-117 scattered the soundwaves emitted by the bats. The bats sensed no sound reflection so they flew into the planes. It wasn’t that there was no sound reflected, it’s just that it didn’t reflect straight back to the animal.
Maybe we should submit this one to “Mythbusters”?
Carter made his Stealth reference during the campaign against Ronald Reagan, which would have put the security breach in the 79-80 time frame. Recall that Reagan was pushing his defense buildup to include the restoration of the B1 Lancer Program. Carter had killed the B-1A & Reagan’s criticism was getting traction with the voters in the wake of the Iran Hostage crisis.
Carter was evidently referring to “Have Blue” which was the F117 flying prototype. Followup stories speculating on the craft suggested the aircraft was the size of a Cessna. In essense Jimmah was hinting that he had something better than the B1 in the pipeline if we’d just wait.
Course that’s typical liberal bait & switch BS. Promise you the mirage on the horizon in exchange for the weapon system right in front of you. The F117 is obviously not in the same range/payload class as the B1 & there wouldn’t be a stealthy alternative to the B1 until the introduction of the B2 — which came along much later.
Stealth is not necessary for Close Air Support (CAS). The A-10 is big, ugly & slow. It’s also a tough bird. The F117 is a china doll by comparison. Your basic threats in the CAS role are small arms (aimed by the Mark One eyeball) & heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missiles.
Plus the payload on the F117 is totally internal & limited. Look at all the stores that are hung beneath the wings of an A10.
The A10 is designed to operate from relatively crude forward airstrips. The F117 requires special hangars & TLC.
There might be some utility in the Supression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) role. There you are trying to kill SAM batteries & radars. That’s the “Wild Weasel” role. I just don’t think that the relative handful of F117’s would be cost effective for that limited role.
Well since we’re talking about this airplane I can tell you that in the 1980’s there would be dogfights at the ranges around Nellis. Sometimes fighters would stray over restricted zones. When they landed the SP’s would meet them, spread eagle them on the tarmac, handcuff them, and escort them to a secure facility for a lengthy debriefing. Eventually, they’d let them go. Word traveled fast and there was seldom any fighters breaking restricted airspace.
I would think that any search radar would have software to assist in the process of identification & tracking. It would seem likely that the radar software would be programmed to ignore small objects (low reflectivity) so as not to distract the human operator with birds, clouds & anomalies. IOW’s the F117 would turn the radar’s own software against it.
Allegedly the HAVE BLUE prototype was tested against a Hawk battery. The operators were very experienced & they tricked up their radar for the test & still couldn’t ‘see it’ until it went right over them. Too late. You’re dead.
No. I was never stationed there and now live in Virginia. But have a number of friends who were Wild Weasels, including the Wing Commander during Desert Storm. And the way they closed I thought was absolutely no class. The Wing went to the war and then George was closed while they were away. They knew it was happening but it still seemed like a slap in the face.
“The F117 was designed before stealth was possible with curved aircraft.”
Yes, my aeronautical engineering friends used to say that the F-117 was designed by electrical engineers - and it showed.
That was a good one, I admit, however, nowadays we don’t really need aero’s... what with computer-based design, stealth, fly-by-wire, and comm links, radar and other sensors, the aircraft world is run by Electrical Engineers.
Aero’s are still good for making paper airplanes, though, Lord knows, they have the time.
“Can you source this please? Why would X band radar reflect back to the detector?”
No he can’t. It’s classified.
“The F-117 was trackable from day one on low band PPI radars, particularly on “antiquated” Soviet equipment”
Oh really? True enough that UHF radar (low frequecy) is where stealth platforms have the highest signature but to imply that the F117 wasn’t effective against that radar is simply not true.
Low frequency radar installations are big, and take a long time to set up and so you always know where they are. The F-117 mission planned around them - just how close they could come to a soviet radar is classified - but it was a well-defined and known parameter.
ALL stealth aircraft are trackable by ANY radar - if you get close enough.
“That was easily discernable from the original emissions and susceptibility test data and the British were tracking them from the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm using low band PPIs.”
The original emissions and susceptibility data is classified.
Yes, I heard about that British thing, too. But really it’s not relevant - stealth is not invisibility. Obviously, the F117’s were not trying to avoid them. They also may have had their signature enhanced at that point - so yes, they may have tracked them, but don’t put too much weight on that event.
The radar cross section of a B-1 is only a small fraction of a B-52s and less than most fighter planes of the same age.
Radars filter by Doppler not size. That eliminates birds and such.
“Radars filter by Doppler not size. That eliminates birds and such.”
Depends what type of radar.
Weren't we talking about search radars? But I can't think of any "modern" radars used in search, acquisition, or tracking that don't use a Doppler filter.
The only type that I can think of that doesn't is an illuminating CW, which would only be pointed at a known target to begin with.
“The radar cross section of a B-1 is only a small fraction of a B-52s and less than most fighter planes of the same age.”
This is not classified: B-52 signature is on the order of 100 square meters, the B-1 is on the order of 10 square meters.
But really there is no single number that represents radar signature. An aircraft signature is more complex and typically expressed as a “donut” that is 360 degrees around and about +- 25 degrees in elevation/depression at some relevant resolution (say, increments of 1 degree)
then you have multiple “donuts” for each frequency band of interest.
“Weren’t we talking about search radars? But I can’t think of any “modern” radars used in search, acquisition, or tracking that don’t use a Doppler filter.”
Sorry, maybe I stuck my yap in without following the thread - but many don’t necessarily use doppler - just depends what type and what you are trying to do with it. I thought you were making a general statement.
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