Posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J
Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.
FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.
The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.
Allow me to explain.
I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.
As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.
It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.
It’s hard to understand; but, a person does not need to hate McCain to not be willing to support him.
Even though the global left never stops pushing, we’re beginning to see some grassroots movements in foreign countries that are pushing their leadership a little more to the right. This may help the U.S. stay center-right. Obama, however, would give a huge boost to leftists worldwide. Temporarily, perhaps, but long enough to do damage. I think McCain would do much better at maintaining the center-right, as long as we stay on him.
” I’d imagine it’s because people come to FR to debate the issues and attempt to persuade others to their viewpoint.”
Why would any conservative try to persuade others to help O or H get elected? This is my main question, you only restated it.
Thank you for opening this dialogue. I, for one, have a similar sense of mystification at the mindset of group #1 (the McCain supporters).
For me, it’s fairly straightforward.
In the short run, we would get more of what we want with McCain in office, I grant you. HOWEVER, if I’m going to have a liberal in office, happily destroying what’s left of our society and country, I’d rather it be a DEMOCRAT liberal than a Republican liberal.
Then, when what-goes-around-comes-around comes around, we can elect a conservative Republican, and start rebuilding. In addition, our party is not contaminated by our accepting / supporting a RINO for our candidate. Once THAT happens, that detestable breed has their foot in the door of our party forever... and we’ll find ourselves with someone just as bad as McCain the next time around - you, know, Arlen Specter, or one of the other RINOs we know so well.
Beyond all that, I simply believe that John McCain is temperamentally unequipped to be President. I think he has anger management issues, and screw lose, and I don’t care if it’s because he was tortured during the war. Someone as unstable as he is should simply NOT be President, from either party, at any time.
Hope this helps :-)
What is this obsession with defining conservatism? To some people Ronald Reagan wasn’t conservative enough.
“This is a vanity stupid.”
Did you mean “this is a stupid vanity?”
Pretty early to be hitting the sauce.
I fully expect to be lmao at you come election day.
who has the “Aw Geez! not this crap again” picture ?
Oh, and you should care what we think because we're going to help sink your friend McCain.
And if McCain loses,will you blame those who didn’t feel they could vote for him,or the candidate?
Not from the way they write about him on this forum.
Conservatives define conservatism by using their vote.
(1) you can't name a single issue on which Obama is more conservative than McCain.
(2) Obama will raise the top rate on the self employed to over 50%, 60% with state tax included, right in the middle of a recession.
(3) Obama will cut and run unilaterally in the war in Iraq and in the WOT.
(4) Obama has stated the policies he will use to deal with Iran getting nuclear weapons, and they are entirely certain to result in Iran having all the nuclear weapons it wants.
All of those are clearly worse for the country and for conservatism, beyond rational argument or any possible spin. That Reagan reborn would be better than McCain will not change any of that. He isn't available. For that matter, running today he wouldn't win.
“and screw lose”
should be “and a screw loose”... sorry, my brain was working faster than my fingers...
With all due respect to you, there are none nastier in this forum that those who support McCain. They resort to name-calling and trash talking even faster than the Rudybots did in the past. Many of them have taken me from just disliking McCain to being outright hostile towards his candidacy, though I make every attempt to keep my hostility from my remarks.
"It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR."
I wonder why you seem to think there might be something wrong with those of us that won't vote for McCain. The very premise of your query is that we must be miserable or democrat trolls. It is human nature and, certainly in political discussions, fairly normal to attempt to get others to see and possibly even agree with your point of view. Please make an attempt to understand that there is not necessarily something defective about being anti-McCain.
There is nothing inherently defective in the line of thought that support for a liberal republican candidate helps move the GOP even further to the left. There are some of us that would actually like to see the party get back to a more conservative place, and it is unlikely to move to the right by nominating and electing a lefty.
Vote for Huckabee in the remaining primaries to send McCain a message.
“As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H).”
That’s your opinion.
There is a 4th which says they’ll vote for Hillary/Obama but attempt to hold the down ticket slots......
“Some people think that we might be better off sinking McCain and at the same time send a message that candidates of his ilk need not apply in the future.”
Uhhh, exactly whom is that message supposedly being sent to? Not the GOP, it was hundreds of thousands of primary voters that are voting for McCain. Do you honestly think they are going to believe their candidate didn’t win the general because they voted for him in the primary?
Do you honestly think 90% of the electorate will think that hard about it?
First the handwriting is on the wall for anyone willing to see it. McCain isn’t going to win. He’s winning primaries with around half the votes Hillary is losing with.
Second, I see no reason to vote for a losing candidate AND give the GOP a go ahead for a further leftward slide. Instead I’ll write in a conservative candidate to show what I want to see from the GOP.
If those reasons were true, I'd see your point. But, your conclusions are not true, it's just what you think and what others here are encouraging as outlined by the thread starter.
On the first point, the fact is, McCain is just liberal enough to win in a country, America, that has gone to the left of center. Obama and Hillary scare a lot of people in this time of war and terror. Their programs will cost a ton of money in a time of recession or near recession. They can be beat if we all decide that it must be done. Keep in mind that Bush won, barely, once and Bush is not that different from McCain.
On the second point - it's purely nonsensical and not well thought out - your vote for someone that's not running is not a statement that will be worthy of review - it simply will show that you are far, far right and, unfortunately must be written off by the GOP as you are unwilling to compromise anything to save America from the far, far left. Shame on you.
Vote McCain. Every vote is needed and it's all about the Supreme Court judges that will be appointed in the next 4-8 years.
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