Posted on 02/09/2008 5:54:38 AM PST by Sub-Driver
Mayor to Marines: Leave downtown He says urban exercises scare people
By JC REINDL BLADE STAFF WRITER
A company of Marine Corps Reservists received a cold send-off from downtown Toledo yesterday by order of Mayor Carty Finkbeiner.
The 200 members of Company A, 1st Battalion, 24th Marines, based in Grand Rapids, Mich., planned to spend their weekend engaged in urban patrol exercises on the streets of downtown as well as inside the mostly vacant Madison Building, 607 Madison Ave.
Toledo police knew days in advance about their plans for a three-day exercise. Yet somehow the memo never made it to Mayor Finkbeiner, who ordered the Marines out yesterday afternoon just minutes before their buses were to arrive.
"The mayor asked them to leave because they frighten people," said Brian Schwartz, the mayor's spokesman.
"He did not want them practicing and drilling in a highly visible area."
So after a brief stop at a friendly base in Perrysburg Township, the Marines by early evening were back on their way home to Grand Rapids.
"I wish they would have told us this four hours ago," Staff Sgt. Andre Davis said.
Sergeant Davis, who traveled ahead of the five-bus convoy, stepped from his vehicle into downtown about 3:20 p.m. and was told by a city employee that the mayor wanted him and his soldiers packed up and out by 6 p.m.
Members of the 1st Battalion, 24th Marines have trained periodically in downtown Toledo since at least 2004 and most recently in May, 2006.
(Excerpt) Read more at toledoblade.com ...
I tried. They told me I was too old.
Question for you however... Where did the experienced Urban Fighters we have in Iraq at present, wearing US Military Uniforms train?
Your argument was just mini-gunned...
This type of training has been ongoing throughout the US for nearly a decade now.
Heck, for some personnel who have served multiple tours in SWA, and are now at company command level positions, this is probably the most standard form of exercise they’ve ever experienced outside of deployment.
The same training already occurred in Toledo in the past. There probably was even opportunity for Toledo government to capture some funding in simply allowing the status quo. Considering the loss of manufacturing industry in that state and region, any well funded orgnanized activity would seem to be a God-send gift to the area.
I recognize your intent, and it is well sent. I have to disagree concerning details and consequences.
IMHO, the reserves today are some of the closest forms of local militia we have available (granted arguments of Natl Guard and formal chain of command). From the perspective of the common man, the USMCR in a grunt company moving from one city to another to conduct a 3-day drill in a urban environment is probably the most efficient and effective way for that unit to train.
It also is probably one of the best ways for the civilian population to also come to grasps with the reality of what this country has in the way of real military. The common man is so pumped up on Bruce Willis special Forces reaction teams and Hollywood versions of military operations, that we’ve really lost sight as to what the real reservist who has already undertaken multiple tours abroad is faced with in reality.
Considering Military retirement pay is now being considered to be removed from he benefits list, the public might want to learn a little more up front and close to what the military really is all about.
“...the prerogative of the US government that US Marines not engage in certain conduct, no matter how honorable, that may result in damage to them as a combat asset...”
Yeah, I’d hate to think that our marines had to do dangerous things during their training. Someone might get hurt.
“And some types of interaction with US citizens is just such conduct. It may not only result in personal injury to US Marines or civilians,..”
Utter nonsense. War is serious business, and just happens to be the business of every living man, woman and child in this nation, not just the military.
Train them as best we can, any way we can accomodate them, and anywhere, for our own interests, as well as theirs.
As a navy veteran, my training was pretty hazardous, especially in firefighting. Should my C.O. have consulted JAG first?
So basically, you’re a member of The Elite Society of Arm-Chair Generals. Thanks for your non-expert opinions.
“Where did the experienced Urban Fighters we have in Iraq at present, wearing US Military Uniforms train?”
Toledo?
Even with the best of training resources, there is an great amount of training value by the very type of weekend drill the Michigan unit had planned.
Considering it had happened before, over many years, had been preplanned, coordinated, liaised, and in operation when the mayor took action to shut it down indicates he either had a glandular moment that cost the taxpayers money or he wanted to have a little tantrum without learning the facts, or else he’s trying to hold out for a greater pot of money.
In either case, he could have better handled the situation with less cost and more benefit to all parties involved.
IMHO, the mayor was an a**. I’ll withhold judgment on his present and future condition.
Nuclear death is OK by this pud, but Marines aren't. How cute.
Recall him!
Thanks having the clarity of mind to understand my position and for your intelligent response. Hopefully it will rub off on a few.
“Little nark type punk...mouthing off then hiding behind someone else...”
Right here:
Crim To: sit-rep
Thankfully....is it not up to you....
To: Crim
Yes, and thankfully you and some other cheerleaders of Military Law Enforcement(the potential of) of our streets are not allowed to repeal posse comitatus.
See here is the REAL insult...to the troops...THAT is what offends me....you imply that Our soldiers would in fact follow illegal orders...just act a mob ...permit through inaction a military coup...
THAT’s is why you dont like this...you’re just plain old paranoid and trying to cover it up with semantics..
” Looks to me that you’re one of those folks who cannot debate so you choose personal attacks. Talk about a loser...”
LMAO....do you even think when you type stuff?
I resort to personal attacks...yet then you call me a name...
Oh boo hoo...
“And your profile page sums up the rest.”
Checking my profile?
Are you stalking me now?
I never run for help. Just keep things in check.
Did not know Free Republic has fallin to this. But hey! I may deserve it because I do not think the Military should be doing exercises in are city streets...
87 posted on 02/09/2008 9:11:47 AM PST by sit-rep
I dont care if you have a moderator in your damn pocket...
You are not only a blatent liar...and a really bad one at that...but you insult the troops (your fellow AMERICANS) as well..
If I get the boot for defending the troops then this place can go to hell...notice I’m not the only one calling you on your BS...
And you are still a felcher.
Word.
People can tell you how to load up, people can show you how to load up...but every unit can go further and farther if they do stuff for themselves and learn the nitty-gritty details of preparation.
I'm not going to sit here and justify combat drills to you, since your comments indicate you know little about deployment, supply, training and the Marines in general.
Sorry for the waste of your time,
I am going to so love hearing the whining little b#tches when one of these outfits decides that malls, auditoriums and schools are open targets, then have complaints about the "lack of preparation" or why training didn't involve more "realistic" scenarios to prevent collateral damage to people and property.
One 6 man team with proper training could decimate a mall, auditorium or school. Two teams would be the perfect scenario for the prior massacre with the bonus of ambushing all the responders as they looked into the mall, auditorium and school.
Moving through an ambush is hard. Cause you've got to be trained over and over and over again to not do the thing that is "most logical" , hunker down. You have to attack through it, and the only way to make your brain forget the impulse of fear, confusion and self preservation is TRAINING, TRAINING and more training.
In the cold, in the heat, in the swamp, in the snow, on a beach, on a river bank, highway, dirt road, even after 24 or 36 hours of no sleep... all to react as a Marine.
My friend, we will fight enemies in cities and I'd like my guys to have that training. Maybe the people in your neck of the woods need to just sack up and admire the Marines learning how to be warriors.
Kinda like watching Rembrandt or Cezanne.
“What will it take - an IED or some suicide bombers to make them understand WHY the military is important? Would they rather see an IED go off downtown during rush hour?”
Probably. That would give the mayor a chance to act “heroic” rather than be seen as the hack politician he clearly is.
A few years ago, Canadian troops were doing similar exercises in downtown Fredericton, with all their usual equipment. I was on my way to a dinner date with some friends and crossed the street right along with a fully-armed soldier who politely swung his (unloaded) C7 to low port as I passed. It was amusing to see others skitter across the street to avoid them. Fredericton, being a typical Canadian government town along with an artsy town and a university town, is full of moonbats and wimps who see anything in camo as the devil incarnate. I didn’t have any problem with it.
Lol... Go away.
Your argument was just mini-gunned...
you are ignorant. I trained in "cities" in this country, in India, the Philippines, and El Salvador... maybe a little in other places also.
Here's some ammo for your water gun, sister
Lol... Go away.
Nah..It’s a free country..I’ll do as I please...
Thanks anyways..
BTW...Dick..
Thank you sir for your service...
I have a slightly higher opinion of the dedication of the American VOLUNTEER soldier.
Men and woman who would risk their lives to save someone like sit-rep, who would most likely be hiding in his (or her) basement.
I understand what you are saying, but I can’t help to think about our past operations as an American fighting force in Urban scenarios. Did we train in domestic city streets during WWII? How did we do it in every town liberated in the European Theater?
My question is why now? Why do we NEED this Urban training, in our city streets now. Did not do it in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Panama and countless other theaters.
This started with clinton’s term that I know of, and at the time, everyone here was against it. Now, for whatever reason, the majority thinks it’s the best idea yet to come down the pike. Makes no sense to me. The Military has in the past used what they had at their disposal for their training. Now it is not enough.
I’m sorry, I don’t want to give into it. There is still memories of the text documents showing tests/questionnaires the military was given about firing on civilians and disarmament of the population. This coincided with the first reports of the Military performing training scenarios in Urban areas. I believe what I read in the past. They may be training for Urban Warfare, but in a subconscious way, this could be useful for less than honorable motivations by the powers that be.
They are/were successful in theater in Iraq cities. They do not need to be doing it here. If something were to happen domestically, all the training in the world would not ready them for an environment where sorties and air strikes would NOT cover them. And unless it is a huge force entrenched in a sector of a major city, I highly doubt any command decisions will be made to aerial bomb private buildings, a cover needed in this type of scenario.
With all the buildings, with all the windows, with all the vantage points? What possible training could ready a man/unit/company for that? You could go thru many of man sent out to draw fire befor you finally see where the fire is coming from. I call that Hell it’s self.
Bottom line... Why now?
Nice try sister?
Well, I guess it is not possible to have a decent discussion with you either.
All I can say now is train away... Go for it...
FWIW, I state what I have and I am Navy Vet. But I guess that does not matter. Your mind is already made up about someone who goes against the grain...
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