Posted on 02/06/2008 7:16:47 AM PST by JohnnyZ
I woke up this morning to a ton of e-mail from aggrieved southerners, almost outnumbering the ton of spam for generic Viagra, which I've forwarded to the RNC. Anyway, southern voters resented my (and John O'Sullivan's) assertion that they hadn't voted for Mitt because he was a Mormon. Au contraire, they said they hadn't voted for Mitt because he's a north-eastern liberal. Whatever. I rather enjoyed this Georgia gal's take:
I was one of your "No Mormon, no way, no how" Southerners until someone at a dinner party asked me if I'd support Orrin Hatch for President. And you know what? I would. It's then I realized I just didn't like Romney because he's about as phony as baloney. And I am unnaturally annoyed at how he receives applause from his audiences: toothless smile, looking left tilting chin up, looking right tilting chin up; back and forth.
Oh and by dinner party I mean oyster roast.
Oh, dear. Mitt is beginning to feel like the conservative media's version of John Kerry, the guy the MSM thought they could drag across the finish line. Except we have a tougher problem, to which Lisa and Stanley referred. The default mode of the culture is liberal; the key levers of society are liberal. Bush-era strategists have largely ignored that reality in favor of get-out-the-vote and other organizational techniques. The defects of that approach seem increasingly apparent.
Two or three months ago Steyn was going on about how he didnt like Thompson. Now its Romney. Why is Steyn always against the most conservative guy in the race?
Effete doesn't mean homosexual.
As Mitt would say, go look it up!
Romney Spent $300 on Makeup Consulting "Well, communications consulting is how presidential candidate Mitt Romney recorded $300 in payments to a California company that describes itself as a mobile beauty team for hair, makeup and mens grooming and spa services."
there's a difference between a guy who went to France to summer at his aunt's mansion and one who went there to knock on doors as a missionary. .... and avoided the draft in the process.
Kerry's the guy who eats his cheesesteaks with Swiss cheese -- Mitt's the guy who peels the skin off his KFC and eats it with a knife and fork.
They're both silver spoon white collar manicured pansies. Effete captures it nicely.
Now, one is a Republican and one a Democrat. That's a HUGE difference -- but of course Mitt was an independent for many, many years when those evil right-wingers Ronald Reagan and George Bush were president!
I don't know if that as the intentions of his story or not. I'm have trouble understanding what he is saying.
So who would you support. McCain who's voting record looks like a democrat or Huckabee the pro-life liberal from Arkansas who thinks Saddams WMDs went to Jordan?
ROFL. What state is Huckleberry from?
From what I can figure, Steyn was saying both Kerry and Romney were stiffs that the media (MSM for Kerry, conservative for Romney) tried to drag to victory in spite of the weaknesses of the candidates.
Yep.
I see you have no problem asking a variety of cults that agree with you for the answer.
And again, saying "all Christian faiths do X" assumes you have the correct definition of "Christian faith", which is the very point you are trying to prove. You cannot construct a valid argument that assumes the answer; that constructs a circular argument. "Since all birds fly, it is clear that your penguin is not a bird, since it doesn't fly."
Now, if you want to claim that all Trinitarian Christian faiths require Mormons to be baptized into their faith to claim true Christianity, you would likely be correct. But that doesn't prove them right, which is why it's called "faith" not "fact".
Also, as I predicted, you attempt Appeal to Authority. I reject that authority, and assert that only Christ has the authority to judge if a person or a faith are truly Christian. Do you contest that assertion? You also attempt Appeal to Majority, as if God's judgment was open to Man's vote. Both are logical fallacies that make your argument fail. It is no different than, "All Real Scientists agree that Global Warming is caused by man. Here's a long list of Real Scientists to prove it. If you disagree, then you don't have a true understanding of Global Warming and cannot be considered a Real Scientist."
Didn't we already go over this? Is it time to move on to the ad hominum and subject change yet?
Christ does define who is Christian, and it does include trinitarian theology, which is entirely Biblical. Also the belief in multiple physical Gods, the on again/off again belief that men may become Gods, belief in exaltation instead of salvation, and on and on.
In other words, there are only the minor differences of the Natur of God, Sin, Salvation and the After Life.
And the Mormon faith includes many extra-Biblical beliefs.
And the Ward Churchill example was deliberate and dead on. There are inherent truths to the DNA, just as there are inherent truths to the Christian faith. And when those truths are rejected, one is not Christian.
And it’s so ironic that you accuse me of slurs against Mormons, but it is you tossing out slurs of being oblivious.
My objection is to being southern. I’m a yankee, and proud of it. And I’ll take my Bible, and leave Joseph Smith’s revelations to Mormons.
As Mitt would say, go look it up!
I come up with this:
1. Depleted of vitality, force, or effectiveness; exhausted: the final, effete period of the baroque style.
2. Marked by self-indulgence, triviality, or decadence: an effete group of self-professed intellectuals.
3. Overrefined; effeminate.
4. No longer productive; infertile
None of that sounds like Mitt Romney.
Kerry's the guy who eats his cheesesteaks with Swiss cheese -- Mitt's the guy who peels the skin off his KFC and eats it with a knife and fork.
They're both silver spoon white collar manicured pansies. Effete captures it nicely
I guess "pansy" doesn't mean homosexual either?
The draft thing isn't good, but how you want to interpret the way people order food or eat depends a lot on the impression you've already formed of them. What might look effete or effiminate to you, might be seen as dorky or geeky, but not necessarily unmasculine or overrefined or self-indulgent.
I thought Bush's father buying socks to stimulate the economy and marvelling over the electronic checkout system was endearingly dorky. For some people it made him Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette, and the Democrats were only too willing to exploit that.
And just what you think of Huckabee cooking squirrels in a popcorn maker -- whether you find it criminal or barbaric or quaint or quirky -- is also a matter of taste.
Anyway, if you'd seen Elliot Richardson and some of Massachusetts other GOP candidates down through the years, Mitt would come across to you as the salt of the earth and a true man of the people.
Oh? Which Book is the Nicean Creed in? And what makes it superior to the biblical interpretations of the Monophysites and Arians? The only reason there are only "minor differences" concerning the Nature of God is because, between Rome and the early Mohammadans, the heterodox believers were exterminated. Arianism was alive and well for 200 years after Nicea, past the time of St. Augustine, and no one argued that they were not Christians, just that they were heretics. Monophysitism still exists in Ethiopia among the Copts. Half of Europe was depopulated because the Protestants and the Catholics were exterminating each other for being anti-Christs, so which side was correct then about whom was Christian and who was not?
Look, if you want to declare Mormon beliefs to be heretical to the more commonplace trinitarian beliefs, go right ahead. I'd agree. But, when men start taking onto themselves the prerogatives of Christ, I'm going to object to the hubris.
When someone declares that they believe in Christ as their Savior, and tries their best to follow His teachings as they are given to understand them, then as far as I am concerned, they are a Christian. I may think them woefully mistaken in their dogma, and try to convince them to change to mine, but I am not going to pretend to know the Mind of God better than God and take upon myself an authority He has reserved.
And if you cannot understand why Mormons feel slurred when you question their faith in Christ as their Savior, think how you would feel if someone questioned yours. As to calling you oblivious to your effect, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. The alternative is that you were being intentionally offensive to 12 million people, many of whom help form the backbone of American conservativism. It does not behoove the mainstream Christians to go out of their way to try to offend a major political ally, regardless of how righteous it makes them feel. Kinda like Huck did.
You disregarded a slew of reasons, and focused on only one.
The trinitarian belief is Biblican, not Nicean. The NT is full of Christ’s references to Father, Son and Spirit unity.
Matter of fact, there’s ample OT support as well, especially in the use and understanding of “ehad.”
It’s not a matter of man’s perogative, which was behind the evils such as the Protestat-Catholic killings. It’s a matter of Biblical Supremacy, which again Mormon’s don’t fully accept.
You can’t accept Christ as your savior if you reject His nature.
The issue isn’t faith in Christ, it’s a rejection of the true nature of Christ. You can’t re-invent Him in a more desired image and then accept Him.
And...to the point of this thread...if Mormons see themselves as equal with other Christians, how do you explain the disparity in the voting in Utah? Non-Mormons are supporting Romney in MUCH larger percentages than it appears Mormons are supporting Christian candidates.
Let me try this another way. I’m a Christian.
So I ask you, am I a Mormon?
Why or why not?
Trinitarian belief is a biblical interpretation, codified at Nicea. It is not explicit in the NT, and there are also incidences where the Trinity is clearly depicted as separate, such as at Christ's baptism.
So it is not really biblical supremacy you argue, but a particular interpretation of the Bible's message. For hundreds of years after the crucifixion, the Divine nature was argued, by those much closer to the events than we are. Were the early Church members who did not hold to Trinitarianism not Christian? Did they "reject His nature" or did they just sincerely believe it was not as the other Christian factions believed, and that their understanding of His nature was more pure?
Non-Mormons are supporting Romney in MUCH larger percentages than it appears Mormons are supporting Christian candidates.
Again, you impose your worldview on the Mormons. As they see it, ALL the candidates are Christian. And, it's not as if the population of Utah doesn't have a long history of supporting non-Mormon republicans. They are the "reddest" state in the Union. Perot got more votes than Clinton in Utah.
Why the disparity? Because Romney was a well-known person in the state, due to his involvement in the highly successful SLC winter Olympics and his religion was a benefit instead of a unknown scary negative. Because Huckabee had made disparaging remarks hostile to the main faith of the voters, and so negated his main moral appeal. Because McCain is a superannuated fence jumping "maverick". Why the disparity here on FR, given the choice between those three? It would seem Utah was more in sync with FR on Feb 5 than the South was.
Im a Christian. So I ask you, am I a Mormon?
Do you define your Christianity in terms of your personal relationship to Christ, or in terms of your membership in some organization?
To put it another way, there are lots of Mormons, Catholics and Protestants, etc., who are Christians, and there are also quite a few in those groups who are not, though they wear the seeming. Christ knows who believes, and has said that all who believe are to be saved. I don't think he expects mere men to understand His nature in order to make the cut, or we should all surely fail.
Is a Baptist a Christian?
Is a Roman Catholic a Christian?
Is a Unitarian a Christian?
Is a Pentacostal a Christian?
I could find traditions and beliefs in each of those denominations which are NO WHERE to be found in the Bible, whether New or Old Testament.
Yet you hold some inexplicable intolerance for Mormons because they have traditions and beliefs not found in the Bible.
Or maybe you just don't like certain Mormons, such as Romney, because he is successful and good looking.
After all, many Romney haters say they would have no problem with Orin Hatch as President.
Wonder why that is.
Perhaps there are just as many class-envy wealth-haters in the conservative/Republican party as in the Democratic party.
I posted several times.....” Rommney was govrnor of Massachuttes”
Not all Christian denominations adhere to Nicea, namely mine. Not sure why you continue to push Nicea.
And the text you reference at Christ’s baptism in no way represents separation. That is a tremendous stretch.
When viewed comprehensively, OT and NT, Trinitarian belief is the only reasonable outcome, and is cornerstone to Christian faith. As for your arguements of first Christians, I consider the fact that they were almost certainly not in possession of the full Bible.
And you also avoided the issue of Biblical supremacy, again something Mormon’s reject, but Christian’s accept.
And again, if Utah were religion neutral, then the Romney victory margin wouldn’t be so out of whack with other states, including Romney’s home state (where he is also quite well known).
As far as my question about being Mormon, you avoided it entirely. Let me rephrase. Are all Christians Mormon as well?
There’s a reason you ducked the question. Let’s be honest.
All vegetables are considered food .... but not all food is a vegetable.
All primates are animals.... but not all animals are primates. (humans excepted).
So your inane question goes to the heart of your prejudice and animosity against Mormons.
If your main reason is that they don't accept your "Trinity" demands, then (as many others have already noted) you must be absolutely apoplectic against Jews, or atheists.
And if not, why?
Heck, they would absolutely destroy the nation with their anti-Christian views, according to your logic.
Mormons believe Christ is the key to salvation, therefor they are a Christian denomination.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.