Posted on 02/06/2008 2:51:01 AM PST by LowCountryJoe
To hear the Lou Dobbses and Bill O'Reillys of the world--not to mention politicians ranging from Ron Paul to Hillary Clinton--the middle class of America (however you define that term) has never had it so tough. Between credit squeezes, out-of-control immigration, rising costs of education and health care and everything else, it's all darkness out there for those of us who are neither millionaires nor welfare cases, right?
In "Living Large," Drew Carey and reason.tv examine the plight of the American middle class. What do they find?
http://reason.tv/video/show/61.html
Tell me some of the great jobs that came about from doing business with China? Capitalist believe in competition unless it is competing for labor. How do wages improve when the government lets them bring in people from overseas every time the labor market gets tight. The idea is to get educated so you have skills that others don’t so your wages go up. You pay for college, but the college you go to gives scholarships to people from other countries and then use them to keep your wages down.
When? What did the man do for work?
“So the presumption is you had a figure in mind when saying a family doesn’t need 2 incomes. Duh it depends on how big the family but surely you could just pick something. I’ll help you; let’s say a middle aged couple whose last kid has just moved out, and a couple in their 30’s with 2 kids. As for where they are living, just an average, we aren’t talking big city or expensive suburb.”
It still depends on WHERE they are living and their past history of handling their money (suppose they just finished a bankruptcy).
But going by Indiana (where I live) and not a big city or expensive suburb I’d say a middle aged couple could get by on the national average $35,000-40,000. BUT - only if they budget and live simply. One person’s simple is another’s extravagant. It all depends on so many factors which is why you can’t really generalize which is what the media does. Or worse, they take some bad example and call it the norm and say it indicates a trend.
But as someone else said - that two people with degrees can barely make it, please.... It all comes down to individuals. One can argue this till doomsday.
I lived in Iowa in the late 60’s early 70’s. The meat packing plants were all union jobs paying about $7 an hour or more. Most of them had there own homes, cars, campers, pensions, and health insurance. New Chevy Impala cost me $2,700 and you could buy hamburger 3lbs. for a dollar on sale.
In the mid-sixties my father (sole earner) made about fifteen thousand a year as a salesman. We noticed a definite increase in our standard of living from the fifties. However we had just one car (Chevy), one tv, we didn’t go on vacations, and my parents weren’t frivolous to say the least. And we thought we had it good for that time.Our neighbors lived more or less like we did. Nobody rich, nobody real poor.
When? What did the man do for work?50's and 60's. Manufacturing jobs. The "rust belt" used to be full of them. Look to Gary Indiana or Detroit if you want to see what's left.
In the mid-sixties my father (sole earner) made about fifteen thousand a year as a salesman. We noticed a definite increase in our standard of living from the fifties. However we had just one car (Chevy), one tv, we didn’t go on vacations, and my parents weren’t frivolous to say the least. And we thought we had it good for that time.Our neighbors lived more or less like we did. Nobody rich, nobody real poor.Yup. That's one of the reasons I liked living in Japan(although Japan is beginning to become like the US now too). Nobody was rich or extravagant but every body had enough to be comfortable. And this was in the height of the deflationary spiral.
What % of workers had manufacturing jobs in the 50s and 60s?
What % of workers had manufacturing jobs in the 50s and 60s?I don't have the numbers offhand, but I can tell you that 39% of all private sector employees were unionized in 1958 so that should give you a general idea of the percentages.
You posted, in part: Capitalist believe in competition unless it is competing for labor.
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Capitalists believe in getting the best deal on everything they can, and charging the highest price they can get away with for their products. It is all about profit. Capitalism IS about competition. Those who cannot compete, either by price (including the price for labor) or by providing a better product (including work skills that are hard for an employer to find), lose out to those who can. Most of us buy those products made in China, as long as they are of a level of quality that compares with the cost. Sometimes we buy “cheap” goods of low quality and other times we want high quality and are willing to pay a premium.
There are lots of jobs in the US that involve assembling parts or using things made in China to create other things.
One reason why so many jobs have left the US is because of governmental regulation, and to an extent, greedy unions who have driven labor prices artificially high. No company would seek to get its labor elsewhere if it could get just as good workers at the same, or nearly the same, cost here.
| U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Postal Square Building 2 Massachusetts Ave., NE Washington, DC 20212-0001 |
Phone: (202) 691-5200 |
In January, 1958, we had 52,077,000 workers, 15,130,000 in manufacturing. I guess only 29% of families could live the manufacturing dream.
In January, 1958, we had 52,077,000 workers, 15,130,000 in manufacturing. I guess only 29% of families could live the manufacturing dream.30% is a heck of a lot. I don't think you really get it. 30% of the working population most of whom *didn't go to higher education* had a very high standard of living. Which is what we were talking about and you seem to have forgotten.
That's funny. My neighbour's husband earns over $100K, and she shops at goodwill and the sally ann, because she likes to.
"When? What did the man do for work?"
Well, my Dad, with a grade 8 education, drove a truck for Coca-cola, moved up with promotions, and then sold real estate, and then opened a business.
It worked just fine for him, and our family.
Sure is.
I don't think you really get it.
I get it perfectly.
Even 13 years after the end of WWII, when most of the manufacturing in the rest of the world hadn't been rebuilt, we only had 30% of our workforce in manufacturing.
Even 13 years after the end of WWII, when most of the manufacturing in the rest of the world hadn't been rebuilt, we only had 30% of our workforce in manufacturing.Which is a complete non-sequitur to the discussion. Take your ritalin and read the thread again.
Check later
Listening to most protectionists, I thought a much larger % of our workers were able to drop out of high school, get manufacturing jobs and instantly buy a house, new car and support a wife and 3 kids. Now I find that only 29% of our workers were in manufacturing in 1958. Not as high as I thought, considering the anecdotes I see thrown around here.
Listening to most protectionists, I thought a much larger % of our workers were able to drop out of high school, get manufacturing jobs and instantly buy a house, new car and support a wife and 3 kids. Now I find that only 29% of our workers were in manufacturing in 1958. Not as high as I thought, considering the anecdotes I see thrown around here.You still don't get it. Start putting the numbers together. 15% of so of employees had 4+ year post secondary degrees. So now we're at 45% of the population. That still leaves the tradesmen, the mechanics and other high paying service jobs.
What are you trying to prove?
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