Posted on 01/08/2008 4:09:13 PM PST by tantiboh
1 Peter 3:19-21
You quoted this scripture because ?????
~You need to go and warn them about their need to repent and be saved...~
I agree. Our missionaries go to accomplish just that. We havent been able to reach them all yet. So what of those that never had the chance to receive? Whats their consignment?
________________________________________________________
You are the one concerned...
What do you want to do ???????????
As Mormonism comes more into the limelight, its heresies become more clear. It’s only when it’s allowed to run under the radar that it gains adherents.
I’m all for Romney becoming President. imagine how much scrutiny his heretical faith will receive! It’ll be wonderful to have Joseph Smith and his friends so closely evaluated! :-)
I was thinking about Joseph Smith today. What is it that he ever did to make people even today hate him so much? What did he do to deserve to be murdered in cold blood with no trial, no judge, no jury. What would cause people to hate him so much they would want to murder him in cold blood? A filthy hatefilled mob of bloodthirsty men (with blackened faces so they would not be recognized) broke into Carthage jail and murdered Joseph Smith and his brother in cold blood. Cowards! Apparently, they are your kinda guys.
We are a peculiar people, we Mormons, though, I will give you that.
Joseph Smith did prophesy that his name would be known for good and evil. You know his name for evil and I know his name for good so he was right about that.
There is no name under Heaven whereby men may be saved. The only Savior is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Master. Joseph Smith believed that with his whole heart and they hated him for it and still do to this day.
Get over yourself already.
His fantastic stories have led many to distrust Scripture and to believe heresies about God and our relationship with him. I'd say that's a big part of why people don't like Joseph Smith the false prophet, who claimed that Christianity was so screwed up that God sent him along to set things straight. JS thought little of biblical Christianity; that's why we think little of him.
Don't go implying that Mormonism is compatible with Christianity. Your very faith was a response to the supposed disrepair into which Christianity had fallen. You yourselves admit that your doctrines about Jesus are incompatible with the doctrines of Jesus conveyed through Scripture. That's why JS wrote the Book of Mormon: to set things straight.
May you some day come to see Scripture as not faulty. And that therefore the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc. are entirely unnecessary.
If you say so.
~”You yourselves admit that your doctrines about Jesus are incompatible with the doctrines of Jesus conveyed through Scripture.”~
I never admitted that; did you Saundra?
Goodness, Theo, how’d you find out our secret?
++++++++++++++++++++++
In your own words, from your own experiences, tell us why you think your understanding of Gods plan is right.
Who knows, if you can do it without putting us down, may be we will listen and understand.
Ps. in your words, without using Bible words that mean different things to different nonmormon Christians.
I want to START a group, EVANGELICALS FOR MITT ROMNEY!!
That is the foundational motivation for Mormonism. Traditional Christianity had so devolved from the true faith that it was necessary for Joseph Smith to bring correction. Do you disagree with that? Why was it necessary for JS to show up on the scene? Did he not introduce anything new?
One would think that if all the answers were in the Bible, this would be an easy one. But your reluctance to answer was one that I ran into frequently, on this question as well as many others. I can’t count how many times I was told, we’re just not meant to know those things in this life.
I have delineated the various Christian churches I attended in my lifetime before my conversion in other posts. For those of you out there who are wondering the same things, where are the answers, for me, definitively, it was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons). The answers are there & they DO go right along w/ the scriptures. Seek, and ye shall find indeed! Have a great Sabbath TN.
I would encourage you to have a look at http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/
You said: “You yourselves admit that your doctrines about Jesus are incompatible with the doctrines of Jesus conveyed through Scripture.”
Then, I said: “I never admitted that.”
Then you said: “Traditional Christianity had so devolved from the true faith that it was necessary for Joseph Smith to bring correction. Do you disagree with that?”
No, I don’t disagree. The logical flaw that you embrace is in assuming that traditional Christianity is compatible with the doctrines Jesus conveyed through scripture.
~”Why was it necessary for JS to show up on the scene?”~
Because man has, in many cases, made up doctrines to suit him, rather than holding with what Christ and the prophets taught.
~”Did he not introduce anything new?”~
There are components of LDS theology that were held in reserve for the end times; the core Gospel, however, is precisely as it always has been. In that regard, Joseph Smith did not introduce anything new - he simply acted as God’s instrument to reintroduce what man had abandoned.
I take your dodge to my invitation for you to post all the Bible passages which you believe authorize baptism for the dead/teach baptism for the dead to mean that you know of only ONE Bible passage which Mormonism can interpret to support Mormonism baptism for the dead. So you change the subject and try to infer you cannot get a reasonable discussion thus you will leave the field. And you Mormonism apologists wonder why so many find your methodology to be so Romneyesque!
The Bible is the word of God; but not all spiritual truth is found therein. It is well-known that the LDS Church embraces some concepts and doctrines that are found only in LDS scripture. We make two points about this:
1.) There is not a jot of LDS doctrine that contradicts the Bible, despite man’s regular misinterpretation of it.
2.) Mainstream Christians often demand that we defend our extra-Biblical doctrines by using only verses from the Bible, while simultaneously embracing many of their own extra-Biblical doctrines. This is hypocrisy.
Ah, the standard cult response: ‘We don’t need more than one vague Bible reference [to promote baptism for the dead in this case] to support our cultish belief because we have extra-biblical evidence which supercedes the Bible. Good luck with that, heretic. The Bereans knew better than to take that road.
You had to remove my name from the “To” box in order to insult me? What kind of childishness is that?
Nothing in LDS scripture supersedes the Bible. We do enjoy a lot of clarification and added context.
If what I have in my spiritual life and my relationship with Christ is the result of heresy, then I embrace the label with joy in my heart.
I basically answered your question in other posts. You have yet to answer mine except to frequently resort to calling me an agent of Satan, etc. as you have in the past.
As I stated earlier, there’s a lot missing from the Bible as evidenced by the the scriptures mentioned in the Bible that are nowhere to be found therein. Man decided what was to be compiled in the Bible in roughly 325 A.D., not the Lord. There are other mentions of baptism for the dead outside of the Bible.
That’s the part I perhaps least understand, the blind faith that believes in a group of men, who claimed no devine revelation in compiling the Bible, or the creeds for that matter. They fought over these matters extensively. There was no claim of the Lord’s direct input as to what books were to be included & what was not in the Bible. Yet, you have have the audacity to claim the Bible contains the whole word of God.
As amazing as that is to me, I respect your opinion, albeit not your method of presentation. I would love some day to have a reasoned discussion w/ you outside of the sandbox. Today’s comments are evidence today is not that day. The sandbox is yours, have fun!
So, only one vague Bible passage. I don’t blame you for running. Have a pleasant evening.
Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna,21 (and) lived not very long ago.21 This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. You see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him.Reader this is from the first paragraph at this link from my page on Hippolytus. More...
"Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya.6 And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics,6 but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!So between the time that Hippolytus died in 236 and the Council at Nicea in 325 AD the view of the church swung from three entities acting as one God to one God made up of three manifestations. The diefication of man is lost, and the true goal of the plan of salvation is lost so that it is preached then as a mere shell of it's former knowledge.
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's6 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum6 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God:7 for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality.7 This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself" i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace7 with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,7 rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine7 perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!7"
"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of PaulWe believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."U Said: Mormon Doctrine was republished with revisions while he was an apostle (most recent edition is 1991). At the time of the first edition, McConkie was a member of the 70, one step away from apostleship (which MD did not appear to affect).
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.When Jesus gives you a command, he gives you a way to keep that Command, and we have been commanded to save out ancestors by allowing the righteous among them to chose to accept the ordinances they didn't have the opportunity to receive here while alive, thus they can be judged according to their works..
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.I know this does not agree with what your theology teaches, but the Bible clearly teaches that Hell will be destroyed and that people will come out of it first to be judged...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now they seek to exhibit the foundation for their dogma by citing the word in the law, "I am the God of your fathers: you shall have no other gods beside me; " and again in another passage, "I am the first," He says, "and the last; and beside me there is none other." Thus they say they prove that God is one. And then they answer in this manner: "If therefore I acknowledge Christ to be God, He is the Father Himself, if He is indeed God; and Christ suffered, being Himself God; and consequently the Father suffered, for He was the Father Himself." But the case stands not thus;Gee, this sounds to me a lot like the arguments Trinitarians try to make with Mormons.
Let us look next at the apostle's word: "Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever."21 This word declares the mystery of the truth rightly and clearly. He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father."21 He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever. For to this effect John also has said, "Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."21 And well has he named Christ the Almighty. For in this he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony, and said, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father; "21 and Christ rules all things, and has been appointed22 Almighty by the Father.It Looks to me like Hippolytus understands that Jesus was appointed to be God by his father before time began.
If, again, he allege His own word when He said, "I and the Father are one,"22 let him attend to the fact, and understand that He did not say, "I and the Father am one, but are one."22 For the word are22 is not said of one person, but it refers to two persons, and one power.22 He has Himself made this clear, when He spoke to His Father concerning the disciples, "The glory which You gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and You in me, that they may be made perfect in one; that the world may know that You have sent me."22 What have the Noetians to say to these things? Are all one body in respect of substance, or is it that we become one in the power and disposition of unity of mind?22 In the same manner the Son, who was sent and was not known of those who are in the world, confessed that He was in the Father in power and disposition.Now this proves that Hippolytus was no more a trinitarian than I am, let me also point out that Hippolytus understood God's oneness the way I do. (One in heart might mind and strength)
These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods?25 I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy25 of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands,26 and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding:26 the Father who is above all,26 and the Son who is through all, and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God,26 but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit.What is really amazing to me is this was translated by the Catholics, and they left in it the refutations of their Creeds and Dogma (They also translated Economy as Trinity everywhere they could, but it still refutes them).
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