Evangelicals Against Mitt

The American Spectator ^ | 1/3/2008 | Carrie Sheffield

[MHGinTN]

“The Church grows by the Power of the Holy Ghost and no other way.” Yes, but what is to blame for the growth in numbers of Mormonism adherents?

[DelphiUser]

How much of that growth is due to missionary successes and how much is due to the fact that the LDS Church promotes large families? Until that mix is known, your fact cannot be used to disprove the statement that the missionary activities are having poor results.

Lets reverse this logic. It has been posited that Missionary work in the church is going poorly, it has also been posited that Members are leaving in droves, since the number of members in the church is going up, and the ability to "Create" new members takes a long time (9 months) and it takes a short period of time for a member to leave the church (average two weeks). If these postulates are true the number of members of the church would invariably go down. the numbers are going up, the speed with which a baby is gestated are not in dispute, the length of time to actually leave the church is governed by the General handbook of instructions of the church. The number of people "Leaving" the church is ill defined, the number of new converts is well defined and the number retained beyond one year is well defined. The only number which is not well defined is how many are leaving, therefore it is the most likely, reason for the projected results not being achieved. Ergo, The number of members leaving the church are not as significant as the postulated formula would have us believe.

Simply put, the "Large family argument" does not introduce the upward movement in the numbers we are observing.

[MHGinTN]

Yes, Satan is in church every time the doors open, too. You are inferring that God would align His Grace with a religion that teaches its adherents to ‘do all that they can do’ to be worthy to receive salvation in the future where/when. The New Testament —except for the small missuse of James’s letter written to Jews in James’s effort to keep Christianity as a sect of Judaism— teaches that Salvation is immediate, that the Holy Spirit comes in to cleanse then dwell in the spirit of the faither in Christ ... salvation is not some event in the future if you ‘do all that you can do to be worthy, to earn the grace’.

[tantiboh]

We’ve fought many battles over this one, MHG. We’re not going to resolve it today.

Tell you what: I’ll have faith, and believe, and do good works. You have faith and believe. If you’re right, we’re both filled with the Holy Spirit, we’re both cleansed, and we’re both saved. Meanwhile, I’ll have a happier life.

[Terrence DoGood]

This is disgusting. I could give a rip what the man’s religion is. He’s sharp as a tack and is one of the guy’s who (during the debates) demonstrates a command of the issues, knows what he talking about and really wants to earn my vote. I think he’d make a pretty good POTUS. I’ll gladly vote for him over McCain, Huckabee, Rudy, or Paul.

[CommerceComet]

Simply put, the "Large family argument" does not introduce the upward movement in the numbers we are observing.

A more direct answer is called for. There must be a breakdown of whether the growth is internal growth (via new births) or external growth (via new converts). Otherwise these numbers are essentially useless.

I think that you are underestimating how much internal growth can affect overall growth. A couple has six children over 12 years. That is a total 300% increase in the family or 25% annualized increase. In a church with lots of families in child-bearing years, this increase can be very substantial. That is every before considering the exponential growth potential when the children start bearing children.

[MHGinTN]

"I’ll have faith, and believe, and do good works." tantiboh Have faith in what, that you will do enough to earn exaltation/salvation?

"You have faith and believe." tantiboh Ahh, and the word faithe is substituted for believe and the life I'm living is a walk with Him in my human spirit, transforming me by the renewing of my mind. In your belief system, when will the Holy Spirit come into your human spirit to renew your mind?... After all that you can do to earn that Grace?

"If you’re right, we’re both filled with the Holy Spirit, we’re both cleansed, and we’re both saved." tantiboh Son, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit now, not some later after all that you can do to be worthy, then you and I are in --already in-- the same family! I sincerely hope that is the case, Tant.

"Meanwhile, I’ll have a happier life." tantiboh Oh really? If you are awaiting some deliverance after all that you can do, then you are in a different LIFE because eternal LIFE is already in me due to my faithing in the Promise from God that He will be in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. I count it the greatest expression of happiness to be able to write this to you of assurance, because what I write to you regarding my gaurantee is based on amening the Promises of God, not some doctrine penned by a peepstone false prophet who is a proven liar and conman who put all sorts of man-made conditions on your assurance of God's Deliverance for your immortal soul.

[rickomatic]

Ah, that’s perfect. I don’t. I base my Christianity on my faith in Christ.

tantiboh, We are not playing word games here. I am serious. If you are basing your faith on the false Christ as defined by Joseph Smith, you are being deceived by the evil one. That "Christ" is not the "only begotten son" spoken of in the New Testament. He is the only one who has the power to save you. Not Joseph Smith's concoction.

[tantiboh]

~”Have faith in what...”~

In Christ and His atonement. I thought that went without saying. I forgot that you would be looking for ways to nitpick. My apologies.

~”Oh really?”~

Yes. Do you find joy in serving others? In striving to become a better person? Perhaps not, since works are not required in your framework of beliefs. But I certainly do.

In fact, just a couple of days ago, I went with the missionaries to the home of a young man. He’s Catholic by heritage, but is searching for something more. It was a great joy to express to him my love for the Savior and to help teach him of God’s love for him. I’m very pleased that I had the opportunity.

This evening, another member of my ward (a former Methodist, by the way) dropped by with his pickup to retrieve an extra bed that I had. He was transporting it for a young woman in our ward who has just struck out on her own with very little means and was sleeping on the floor. I found happiness and joy in the ability that I had to help her in this way. Tonight, she will be more comfortable.

My religion teaches me to take advantage of such opportunities. It’s a constant source of joy; and I can feel my relationship with Christ strengthen as I take advantage of them, as well as when I strive to become more honest, more charitable, and more honorable. These things are called “works.” Indeed, I have far, far to go before I am a perfect person; but as long as I am moving forward steadfastly on the path, then the Grace of Christ is sufficient for me. He does not expect perfection. Just our faith, love, and efforts to be obedient.

You, of course, are freed from the shackles of service and goodwill. You don’t need them. God bless you.

As for your tired disparagement of Joseph Smith, I reject it out of hand. Joseph was a prophet of God. He was God’s instrument in the restoration of Christ’s own Church to the earth. Satan, naturally, is displeased, and strives in the hearts of many to tear down the work of Christ. He does so through lies and half-truths, such as those you have listed. It doesn’t matter; Christ’s Church will go forth, unashamed, bold, and ultimately triumphant over evil. God has spoken it.

In the meantime, I would suggest you join the fight of Mormonism against the forces of evil; but I understand that you are reticent to do so. Those would be works, and for you, works are not necessary.

[tantiboh]

~”We are not playing word games here.”~

You are right. We are not.

~”I am serious.”~

So am I. I could not be more serious.

~”If you are basing your faith on the false Christ as defined by Joseph Smith...”~

I am not. I am basing my faith on Christ as defined by the Bible and the testimony of the Holy Spirit to my soul.

It is you who are redefining my definition of Christ, not me. It continually amazes me that you do so, but it still does not change the fact that I am Christian, whether or not you care to admit it. This faith has been taught to me by the LDS Church; therefore, the LDS Church is a Christian denomination.

All your serious warnings and notifications of prophetic concoction will not change that.

~”He is the only one who has the power to save you.”~

On that, we are agreed, without qualification.

[KTM rider]

a simple analogy:

for instance,

I can say I am a lawyer, but that is false. I have not passed the Bar. I am far from being a lawyer

Mormons can claim to be Christian, but that is false. They believe in the Book of Mormon, which is not cannonized and the LDS beliefs are far apart from any Christian doctrine.

The Christian church retains its God given right to define itself by the doctrines it established

The Bar association retains its established right to define itself by the doctrines it established.

I can still claim to be a lawyer. That doesn't make me a lawyer.

[ChessExpert]

Many people on the left (and perhaps a few on the right) find the word “evangelism” to be very scary. It doesn’t matter whether we are talking about Mormons or “evangelical” Christians. Unless I’m mistaken, evangelism is simply talking to people. It’s not like beheading.

[Acrobat]

I wonder if we have the same debate for Liberal Christians who deny most of what evangelicals hold dear, or agnostics?

How could you vote for anyone at all if you assume his personal religious views are his likely policies? Guiliani? Out! McCain? Out! Thompson? Out!

Not a good approach to litmus test someone for political office based on passing church admission tests...

[tantiboh]

You define Christian by whether or not the person adheres to a given set of doctrines.

I define Christian by whether or not the person strives to follow Christ.

There is the disconnect.

[KTM rider]

OK , I’m Elvis

[montag813]

Whatever you think of Mormonism, Romney doesn’t seem to be a big LDS-pusher. His career has shown a dearth of comments at all about LDS. He has been about effective management and making tons of money. He started Bain Capital in 1984 with $37 million, and his first investment? Staples, Inc. He funded its expansion from 1 store to 1,700. Bain Capital now manages $50 billion. Meanwhile G.W. Bush lost money on three successive business ventures, even with the biggest political connections in the nation.

[montag813]

I suppose having BJ Clinton as President, with Bible in hand at church before having a rendezvous with Monica, is acceptable? However, a straight-laced man, who also is a Mormon, is unacceptable? Please.

And don't forget the great, first "Evangelical" President, James Earl Carter. Baptists loved him in 1976, even though his true beliefs are Marxist "Liberation Theology" (similar to what Mike Huckabee has used to defend his pro-amnesty stances).

[tantiboh]

He does have the Midas touch, at least outside of politics. One reason I think he would make a terrific president.

[ladyjane]

I agree with you. I am shocked by this preoccupation with religion.

The republicans will fight among themselves and we’ll get either Hillary or Barrak Hussein in the White House.

[HungarianGypsy]

evangelism is simply talking to people. It’s not like beheading.

I think the doomsayers are the ones who give evangeical Christians a bad name. I know I first think of someone who stands downtown in the middle of a local college town on a weekend night yelling fire and brimstone.