Pizza driver that shot alleged robber flouted rules (Domino's CCW ban)

St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | 01/03/2008 | Robert Patrick

[newgeezer]

The pizza delivery driver who fatally shot a robber last week could have faced discipline over the incident had he not resigned, a Domino's spokesman said Wednesday.

…

Employees sign an agreement in which they agree not to carry a weapon, Domino's corporate spokesman Tim McIntyre said, a policy designed to protect both the public and employees.

"We're driving down … streets. We're going to people's homes. We're also a workplace," he said.

McIntyre added that police had told the company, "There are too many cases in which a person's own weapon has been used against them."

…

Domino's trains employees to minimize their risk, both before and during a robbery, McIntyre said. Drivers are told to carry a cell phone and avoid wearing jewelry or carrying valuables or more than a small amount of cash — typically $20. …

If robbers approach, drivers are told to "turn over the pizza and empty your pockets."

"The best way to save yourself from harm is to get the situation over as quickly and efficiently as possible," he said. …

Domino's also offers security training to other pizza companies to minimize everyone's risk by limiting the potential payoff to would-be delivery robbers.

…

The driver shot Brian Smith, 19, of the 600 block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson, on Dec. 27. His alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, fled with the pizzas, soda and the driver's wallet, police said, and was later charged with first-degree robbery, two counts of armed criminal action and second-degree murder because he was allegedly involved in a fatal crime.

McIntyre said any punishment would not have been "because he (the driver) defended himself. It would be because he violated a policy that he agreed to follow."

"We completely expect to be criticized," he added.

[CindyDawg]

I want the drivers to have this option. I don’t want a pizza delivered to my house by someone who will not be able to defend himself if needed.

[bill1952]

Police aren’t a fair comparison.
In my experience, citizens are more far likely to shoot than the police, mainly because of tons of regulations.
Plus they get up front and personal, and careless.

I was just stopped by a city cop for a routine check and with my wife and two children in the car, he came out with his hand on his weapon. - and a poor attitude, I might add.

I’m not saying that one cannot be shot with one’s own weapon, but if you understand your weapon and how to use it, then I see no way to do it without being armed and having the drop first.

[Alberta's Child]

I’m not sure I can fault Domino’s for this. This regulation is the kind of rule that will really never be enforced unless the employee has a reason to use a firearm — which means the employee would likely be glad to give up his job in exchange for physical or deadly harm anyway.

[DBrow]

One reason may be that the police do not carry concealed, the handgun is visible and accessible (even from a “retention holster”).

Also, the police use a different concept of operations, they go through many steps and procedures before they even unholster. They’ll negotiate for a peaceful ending and tend to be very reluctant to shoot, a good thing.

An armed citizen, though, can carry concealed and when the threat (punk with a baseball bat for instance) is presented, can draw and fire from concealment to protect his life, after determining that his life is truly at risk (OODA, Observe, Orient, Decide, Act).

Police injured with their own equipment is reported several times a year. Can you dig up an instance where a civilian is disarmed and shot with his own firearm?

[TalonDJ]

but to claim that people don’t wind up getting shot by their own guns is laughable.

First of all it was a COP that allegedly made the statement. Your examples using cops just further prove that it was the statement about 'too make people getting shot with own gun' , when made by a cop is completely laughable. No on said it never happens. They are disputing that it happens frequently to armed civilians. I will bet that it happens to armed thugs more often than to armed lawabiders. And it certain happens to cops all to often. It is completely laughable because the cop is making a point why THEY should be disarmed, not why citizens should be.

[Jemian]

"There are too many cases in which a person's own weapon has been used against them."

Really? When? Too many times these unsubstantiated claims are made without challenge.

[Graybeard58]

Was it to suggest I'm/we're being too harsh with Domino's?

Is Domino's any different than any other pizza joint that delivers?

If there are places that allow their drivers to be armed, I'd like a list so I could patronize those places.

I'm also joining the list to say that I don't like Domino's pizza anyway.

[BlazingArizona]

Domino's figures its liability is lower if their employee is murdered. I would never work for a company whose policy took away my lawful right of self-defense.

States need to step up to the plate here and confer automatic immunity against civil legal action for employees who defend themselves from criminal acts on the job. This would remove the "We could get sued..." argument in cases like this.

[kromike]

I’m not sure I can fault Domino’s for this...

I tend to agree.

From the context of the article, my assumption is that Domino's policy stems not from anti-2nd Amendment but safety from litigation.

Criminals are all too happy to sue people who fight back, so if a pizza delivery guy uses a gun to defend himself, the robber or his pathetic low-life family will be on the phone in a millisecond with some equally scummy lawyer.

If the pizza delivery guy was NOT working for Domino's at the time of the shooting, just he would get sued. But hey, if he's a Domino's employee at the time as well, then it's Mega-Lotto Jackpot Time.

Bottom-line, the argument is a stalemate. But I think the guy did the smart thing by resigning. It kept the criminal's family from ripping off a corporation and by indirect association, ALL Domino's customers.

[samadams2000]

So true.

[an amused spectator]

Businesses should never interfere with the individual right to self defense.

Gun Control - OSHA's covert role (Vanity)

[300winmag]

A lot of employers have the same rule of no guns in the work place.

That's the policy where I work. So one of the security guards murdered his boss with his company-supplied handgun. But at least no HR policies were violated.

Domino's policy (as well as my own employer's) was written by a lawyer who will never have to be on the wrong end of a weapon.

[PalestrinaGal0317]

What a bunch of idiots. Ending the situation "as quickly as possible" by submitting to such demands places the drivers in worse danger than if they were carrying.

I have a friend whose son worked his way through school as a pizza deliveryman (not for Dominos; I believe for another large chain). One night he was mugged by a group of young punks. He handed over the pizzas and the cash, after which they shot and killed him. His last words, incidentally, (to his killers after they shot him and as they were leaving him for dead) were something along the lines of "Jesus loves you."

But of course, if he just handed over the money and pizza this wouldn't have happened, right? Oh, wait a minute. he DID.

[jdm]

The pizza delivery driver who fatally shot a robber last week could have faced discipline over the incident had he not resigned, a Domino's spokesman said Wednesday.

As opposed to facing death, had he not reacted the way he did?

[SmithL]

Like I need ANOTHER reason to avoid Domino’s.

[300winmag]

A lot of employers have the same rule of no guns in the work place.

That's the policy where I work. So one of the security guards murdered his boss with his company-supplied handgun. But at least no HR policies were violated.

Domino's policy (as well as my own employer's) was written by a lawyer who will never have to be on the wrong end of a weapon.

[rideharddiefast]

I am pretty sure you are right. I think the drivers are independent contractors. They work for themselves. Dominos does not pay any S.S. taxes. But they still have the right not to allow them to deliver their pizzas.

[SteamShovel]

And his source for this claim would be.....?

He has no source.

He's sure it happened at least once, and that's "too many cases" to him despite the fact that successful self defense outnumbers these cases 10-1 (yes, I pull that stat out of the air too).

[Chode]

screw dominos!!! he can get ANOTHER job... but he CAN'T get another life.

[Lord_Calvinus]

***The pizza delivery driver who fatally shot a robber last week could have faced discipline over the incident had he not resigned, a Domino’s spokesman said Wednesday.***

Well, its not like pizza delivery is a career.

***McIntyre added that police had told the company, “There are too many cases in which a person’s own weapon has been used against them.”***

Somehow, I doubt you will find too many in the CCW camp. Apart from the fact they have generally made a conscious decision to have the option of deadly force in self-defense, they have the option to NOT employ and keep their weapon concealed. In this regard, they have an advantage over even the police.