Posted on 12/19/2007 5:48:59 AM PST by SJackson
That is very true and I agree that a religious America has not been the threat to the world that the Communists and the Nazis were. Not even close (despite what Nancy Pelosi believes.)
So Prager is correct in that simple comparison. But look again at what he says:
Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.
That is way to broad a generalization.
He is equating being nonreligious (i.e. secular) to Communism and Nazism. That is simply not true and by defining these aggressive socialist dictatorships by the single parameter of their nonreligious or even anti-religious foundations is way too much of an oversimplification for me. The world just doesn't revolve around whether you are religious or not. There are other things and Prager dismisses them all.
Now that doesn't make Cohen right either but I'm picking on Prager not Cohen.
bump
A very good question...:>
Yes. Be careful they don’t ask how you like the celebrations Xmas and Easter have co-opted.
http://www.guttmacher.org/ the parter in crime with PP claims 46 million legal abortion per year worldwide annually. That’s 1 billion since 1987.
Please FreepMail me if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.
Freepmail wagglebee or little jeremiah to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.
FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
The last time Europe went to war over religion was the 30 Years War, that ended in 1648. And by the last years it had little to do with religion and everything to do with who would be dominant in Germany: Austria, France or Sweden.
There were at least eight general European wars after (depending on how you count the French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic Wars, as one or many), and none were over religion.
qam1: “What day of the week is it?”
Tricky one, eh?
Religious Wars were fought throughout the 20th century in Europe: mainly against Christians butchered by the millions at the hands of Nazis, Muslims, and Communists.
Jews suffered disproportionately, although not exclusively, at the handss of the Pagan German Nazis.
btt
Prager’s point is quite correct in that Nazism and Communism have never arisen in a Judeo-Christian nation. And that hasn’t happened because the foundations of those systems is in conflict with Judeo-Christian beliefs.
Have you read Marx? If so, how else can you consider the flavor of Communism he birthed anything but secular?
Of course Marxism is secular.
My point is that Marxism and Communism are characterized by much more important things than their anti-religious elements. Lenin and Stalin butchered millions of people for reasons that had nothing to do with their or Marx's views of religion. They were murdered because they refused to give up their land and homes to the state. I happen to believe that Nazism and Communism were very bad things but the reasons why have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Marxism and Totalitarianism.
My problem with Prager is that, by inference, he is equating secularism with Nazism and Communism. That is simply a gross over simplification and, by inference, paints religion as the only alternative to totalitarianism.
And your missing Prager’s point, which is dead on, that secularism is required for Nazism and Communism. He never stated that it was the only component, or the most important component. He just stated that it was a requirement for those systems.
And that is absolutely correct.
I think you are wrong about that. You should re-read this from the Prager article:
"In fact, the emergence of communism and Nazism in an increasingly secular Europe is one of the most powerful arguments for the need for Judeo-Christian religions. Europe's two secular totalitarian systems perfectly illustrate what G.K. Chesterton predicted a hundred years ago: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."
So Prager is telling us that if we don't believe in God, we don't believe in anything. And by inference, this lack of belief leads us to socialism and totalitarianism. That is what he saying and that is just nonsense.
Wow, you totally misread that quote.
You said - “So Prager is telling us that if we don’t believe in God, we don’t believe in anything.”
The actual quote - “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”
The quote clearly contradicts what you say.
What Chesterton said, and Prager quoted, was that not believing in God leads to a belief in anything.
The truth is that everyone has some system of beliefs, for religious people it is derived from God, for the non-religious it is based on something else, materialism, utopian philosophy, Communistic theory, the ideals of Nazism, etc.
Well you have me there but can you actually explain the difference between believing in anything and believing in nothing?
Think about it. What could believing in anything actually mean. It has to mean that you have NO core beliefs - you will listen and believe anything you hear. Believing in "anything" and believing in "nothing" are not actually opposites. Believing in "something" is the opposite of believing in "nothing".
In any case, the quote above is just nonsense. If it's not then explain to me what you think it means.
What it means is that people will latch onto something, even if it is self contradicting, illogical, irrational, etc.
As history has shown, in a secular society that situation has given rise to the most destructive forces in history.
The simple reason is that most non-God based belief systems ultimately put their faith in man, who then in turn creates their own morality.
Ravi Zacharias once made an astute point that the horrors of the Holocaust were made possible in the lecture halls of German Universities, where the philosophies of the time squashed religion and elevated the self. Nietsche’s groundwork for existentialism and postmodernism are prime examples. Hegel’s work that denied the existence of absolutes also played a role. There are other examples as well.
Secular Europe? I’ve just had a look at the religion breakdowns of a number of the ‘old europe’ countries on the CIA factbook - most appear to have followers of a religion at 70-80% of the population
B.S. Hilter wasn't an Atheist, he was a Christian.
Too avoid the pointless arguments and the no true Scotsman Fallacy. Even if he wasn't Germany was a very Christian country when Hilter was allowed to take over and it was Christians who carried out his orders.
As for Communism, Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Poland, etc.
And that hasn’t happened because the foundations of those systems is in conflict with Judeo-Christian beliefs.
All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)
There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. (Acts 4:34-36)
Sound exactly like, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.