Posted on 12/07/2007 8:10:37 AM PST by ZGuy
The Reuters headline said: "Mitt Romney Vows Mormon Church Will Not Run White House." Unfortunately, this time Reuters got its story right. In his long-awaited speech designed to win over conservative evangelicals, Romney actually did say something to this effect, making many people wonder why he needed to make such a vow in the first place. It's a bit like hearing Giuliani vow that the mafia will not be running his White House—it is always dangerous to say what should go without saying, because it makes people wonder why you felt the need to say it. Is the Mormon church itching to run the White House, and does Romney need to stand firm against them?
It is true that John Kennedy made a similar vow in his famous 1960 speech on religion, and Romney was clearly modeling his speech on Kennedy's. But the two situations are not the same. When John Kennedy vowed that the Vatican would not control his administration, he was trying to assuage the historical fear of the Roman Catholic Church that had been instilled into generations of Anglo-Saxon Protestants. Kennedy shrewdly didn't say that the Vatican wouldn't try to interfere—something that his Protestant target audience would never have believed in a millions years anyway; instead, Kennedy said in effect, "I won't let the Vatican interfere." And many Protestants believed him—in large part, because no one really thought Kennedy took his religion seriously enough to affect his behavior one way or the other.
The Mormon church is not Romney's problem; it is Romney's own personal religiosity. On the one hand, Romney is too religious for those who don't like religion in public life—a fact that alienates him from those who could care less about a candidate's religion, so long as the candidate doesn't much care about it himself. On the other hand, Romney offends precisely those Christian evangelicals who agree with him most on the importance of religion in our civic life, many of whom would be his natural supporters if only he was a "real" Christian like them, and not a Mormon instead.
To say that someone is not a real Christian sounds rather insulting, like saying that he is not a good person. But when conservative Christians make this point about Romney, they are talking theology, not morality. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the Mormon creed will understand at once why Romney felt little desire to debate its theological niceties with his target audience of Christian evangelicals, many of whom are inclined to see Mormonism not as a bona fide religion, but as a cult. In my state of Georgia, for example, there are Southern Baptist congregations that raise thousands of dollars to send missionaries to convert the Mormons to Christianity.
Yet if Romney was playing it safe by avoiding theology, he was treading on dangerous ground when he appealed to the American tradition of religious tolerance to make his case. Instead of trying to persuade the evangelicals that he was basically on their side, he did the worst thing he could do: he put them on the defensive. In his speech Romney came perilously close to suggesting: If you don't support me, you are violating the cherished principle of religious tolerance. But such a claim is simply untenable and, worse, highly offensive.
The Christian evangelicals who are troubled by Romney's candidacy do not pose a threat to the American principle of religious tolerance. On the contrary, they are prepared to tolerate Mormons in their society, just as they are prepared to tolerate atheists and Jews, Muslims and Hindus. No evangelical has said, "Romney should not be permitted to run for the Presidency because he is a Mormon." None has moved to have a constitutional amendment forbidding the election of a Mormon to the Presidency. That obviously would constitute religious intolerance, and Romney would have every right to wax indignant about it. But he has absolutely no grounds for raising the cry of religious intolerance simply because some evangelicals don't want to see a Mormon as President and are unwilling to support him. I have no trouble myself tolerating Satan-worshippers in America, but I would not be inclined to vote for one as President: Does that make me bigot? The question of who we prefer to lead us has nothing to do with the question of who we are willing to tolerate, and it did Romney no credit to conflate these two quite distinct questions. There is nothing wrong with evangelicals wishing to see one of their own in the White House, or with atheists wishing to see one of theirs in the same position.
Romney's best approach might have been to say nothing at all. Certainly that would have been preferable to trying to turn his candidacy into an issue of religious tolerance. Better still, he might have said frankly: "My religion is different and, yes, even a trifle odd. But it has not kept Mormons from dying for their country, or paying their taxes, or educating their kids, or making decent communities in which to live."
Oh boo hoo boo hoo BOO HOO!!!
These are folks who were BORN into a Mormon house!
Had Family Hours every night.
Went to church learning the SAME LESSON taught world wide.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=b3a4bd90517da010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0
Babes in the Woods might fool some; but not me!
If you notice; she twists her OWN words.
Hint: avoid the TarBaby...
I agree wholeheartedly!!
But I want to know what WORDS he has spoken!
What PROMISES he has made to his church, to GOD, to see if, IMHO, they might, somehow, perhaps, maybe be something that I consider not to be acceptable in a leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth; the Nation that vowed to CRUSH his organinzation in Utah in the 1890's if it did NOT bow the knee to Washington.
Perhaps there might just be a small sliver of getevenness in his soul.
Is it possible?
Nope.
Just ones we won't answer.
You Gentiles just.. don't... get it; do you?
WE are the question ASKERS; not question ANSWERERS!!
--MormonDude(Did THAT satisfy you?)
Xzins has admitted to a double standard. Romney's Mormon faith troubles him deeply, but if Duncan Hunter were a Mormon, it wouldn't matter at all:
Also, feel free to look through Xzins's postings for other ironies, paranoia, etc.
It became apparent that Romney’s liberalism is too recently a part of his past. If Romney can grow in his conservatism over the next 4 years, then I can support him.
But, I want proof that his conversion to conservatism was not just a matter of convenience once he entered the race. Consistency over time will provide that.
BTW, I just happened to work for years in an Army system in which I had mormons as both superiors and subordinates. Those I worked for, those who were my superiors in the CHAPLAIN field were more than honorable...and friends. But you might not have had that kind of experience in your life, so you wouldn't know the bond that develops between those who serve together.
Go for it!
"Praise to the Man" - Elevating Joseph SmithBy Bill McKeever
During 2005, it was a rare day in Utah when the local newspapers did not run an article extolling the alleged virtues of Mormonism's founder or printed some announcement telling readers where such accolades could be heard. Titles like "Joseph Smith's fame" or "Depth of Joseph Smith lauded" were commonplace. Books, conferences, films, a new web site, a silver commemorative coin, and even an opera giving homage to the LDS founder were also added to the mix. The church-owned Deseret News expressed the fine line the Mormon Church must walk when it came to celebrating the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith's 1805 birth. On February 5, 2005, an article ran that stated, "As leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints kick off their yearlong bicentennial celebration of Joseph Smith's birth, they emphasize that while he played a singular role in founding their faith, church members do not 'worship' him" ("Exhibit on Joseph Smith's life opens"). While it is technically true that the Mormons do not pray to Joseph Smith, they do often elevate their founding prophet in ways that are neither historically nor theologically accurate. For instance, second President Brigham Young once remarked, "I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you" (Journal of Discourses 4:298, March 29, 1857). On October 9, 1859, Young said, "From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:289). It is not at all uncommon for Mormon leaders to ignore all of the information that places Joseph Smith's personal virtue in question. Young claimed "Well now, examine the character of the Savior, and examine the characters of those who have written the Old and New Testaments; and then compare them with the character of Joseph Smith... and you will find that his character stands as fair as any man's mentioned in the Bible" (Journal of Discourses 14:203, August 31, 1871). Speaking at the 175th general conference last April, newly appointed Apostle Dieter F. Uchtdorf told the congregation, "As we remember and honor the Prophet Joseph Smith, my heart reaches out to him in gratitude. He was a good, honest, humble, intelligent, and courageous young man with a heart of gold and an unshaken faith in God. He had integrity." ("The Fruits of the First Vision, Ensign, May 2005, p.38). Uchtdorf's conclusion is certainly debatable given the amount that has been written by contemporaries who knew Smith personally and by historians who have carefully analyzed his behavior. In our book, Mormonism 101, Eric and I quoted an interesting observation made by Dr. D. Michael Quinn, a former Mormon historian who was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1993. In our opinion, Quinn gives one of the best capsulated overviews regarding the life of Joseph Smith. In his book The Mormon Hierarchy – Origins of Power (pp.261-262), Quinn notes: "Few Mormons today can grasp the polarizing charisma of their founding prophet. Some may feel uncomfortable when confronted with the full scope of Joseph Smith's activities as youthful mystic, treasure-seeker, visionary, a loving husband who deceived his wife regarding about forty of his polygamous marriages, a man for whom friendship and loyalty meant everything but who provoked disaffection by 'testing' the loyalty of his devoted associates, an anti-Mason who became a Master Mason, church president who physically assaulted both Mormons and non-Mormons for insulting him, a devoted father who loved to care for his own children and those of others, temperance leader and social drinker, Bible revisionist and esoteric philosopher, city planner, pacifist and commander-in-chief, student of Hebrew and Egyptology, bank president, jail escapee, healer, land speculator, mayor, judge and fugitive from justice, guarantor of religious freedom but limiter of freedom of speech and press, preacher and street-wrestler, polygamist and advocate of women's rights, husband of other men's wives, a declared bankrupt who was the trustee-in-trust of church finances, political horse-trader, U.S. presidential candidate, abolitionist, theocratic king, inciter to riot, and unwilling martyr." Mormon leaders rarely, if ever, focus on such a contradictory comparison. In a Sunday morning conference message titled, "The Great Things Which God Has Revealed To Us," President Gordon Hinckley stated, "In this year of celebration, through our own performance, let us honor the Prophet, through whom God has revealed so much. The sun rose on Joseph's life on a cold day in Vermont in 1805. It set in Illinois on a sultry afternoon in 1844. During the brief 38 and one-half years of his life, there came through him an incomparable outpouring of knowledge, gifts, and doctrine. Looked at objectively, there is nothing to compare with it. Subjectively, it is the substance of the personal testimony of millions of Latter-day Saints across the earth." (Ensign, May 2005, p.80). Hinckley then proceeded to tell how, as a boy he loved to listen to a man "with a rich baritone voice," who sang the words to John Taylor's song, "The Seer, Joseph the Seer." He then quoted selected portions from the song: "The Seer, the Seer, Joseph, the Seer! . . . I love to dwell on his memory dear; The chosen of God and the friend of man, He brought the priesthood back again; He gazed on the past and the future, too, . . . And opened the heavenly world to view." The portion quoted by Hinckley is rather innocuous compared to some of the other lines. For instance, in the first stanza we find: "His equal now cannot be found, By searching the wide world around. With Gods he soared in the realms of day, And men he taught the heavenly way." Another stanza states: "The saints, the saints, his only pride! For them he lived, for them he died! Their joys were his, their sorrows too, He loved the saints, he loved Nauvoo. Unchanged in death, with a Savior's love, He pleads their cause in the courts above." This is just one of many references where Joseph Smith is given messianic prominence. Not only does he die for the members of his church, but he also pleads their cause in heaven. Such a comparison comes uncomfortably close to Romans 8:33-34 that tells us it is Jesus Christ Himself who died for His elect and now intercedes on their behalf. Another popular song sung by Mormons in conference is "Praise to the Man" written by W.W. Phelps: "Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer. Kings shall extol him, and nations revere. Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name! Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heav'n, while the earth lauds his fame. "Great is his glory and endless his priesthood. Ever and ever the keys he will hold. Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old. "Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man. Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again." The chorus to the above song reads: "Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain. Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again." The Christian faith has its share of heroes and often the deeds of these men and women are mentioned in sermons as positive examples to follow. However, I find the degree to which Mormons elevate their founder to be especially disconcerting. Though Mormons insist they do not worship Smith, they certainly do ascribe to him attributes and accomplishments that surpass those of any mortal man, including that of the biblical Twelve Apostles. When was the last time you sang a song in church dedicated to the Apostles Paul or Peter that said they died for you and now intercede on your behalf? |
Dang!
Some of you folks say we are wrong on EVERYTHING!!
“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.” (J.D. 13:95)
See there; using circular logic again!!
How can we 'believe' this statement testifying to what is considered to be 'scripture', if it isn't SCRIPTURE itself???
--MormonDude(frustrated at times!)
You’ve strived for a balance, see. You’re right often enough to try and give yourselves some credibility, and wrong often enough to cast Mormons into the worst light you can manage.
You forgot the IMHO.
Time to head for the hills and stock up in the cabin.
I thought you guys alREADY had a years supply of stuff!
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
Not enough room. It's full of pre-missionary who won't know nothin' about nothin' when they hit the trail...
WE just hide our Temple Ceremonies®.
--MormonDude(Go ahead; ask me... I won't tell; cross my heart and hope to die!)
~”WE just hide our Temple Ceremonies®.”~
Nah, you can go see the temple ceremonies any time you like. You just have to meet the prerequisites, like everyone else.
No, it’s not possible, and it should be none of your concern.
That is exactly what was being said about JFK, and I remember that election well because it was the first time that my mother voted Republican, that I know of. To be fair, the Catholic priests were telling the parishioners that they should all vote for Kennedy BECAUSE HE WAS CATHOLIC, and there had never been a Catholic president. The priests never considered that there might be some Republicans in there midst. There were a lot of bad feelings back then between Catholics and Protestants, on both sides. I remember the Catholic kids coming home from school and telling us that we were illegitimate because our parents weren’t married in the Catholic church. It was all very stupid, but very real to both kids and adults.
My guess is that there are all levels of devotion and belief within the Mormon faith, but that it is not openly discussed
either inside the Mormon community or with outsiders. I can’t really see Mitch Romney wearing long underwear so that demons will not enter the orifices of his body. He might wear it, but not because of the demons.
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"Blessed be his name" is a familiar song that has glorified the name of Jesus for decades in Christian churches. However, at a concert at Brigham Young University the title read "Joseph Smith: Blessed be his name." On the campus of BYU a nativity display in the lobby of the Abraham Smoot administration building depicted, not the birth of Jesus, but the birth of Joseph Smith! A sign next to a cradle set in a 19-century looking log cabin read: "We are the beneficiaries of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, a work which had its earthly commencement with the birth of Joseph Smith, in the hills of Vermont on a December day in 1805. As we commemorate the birth of the baby in Bethlehem, the Savior of the world, may we also remember his messenger, Joseph Smith, and rejoice in his life and sacrifice."