Posted on 11/09/2007 4:55:08 PM PST by fanfan
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".
The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.
Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.
Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.
He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."
In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
Good point JSteff. That’s all true. Thanks.
Is that code for “you dumbell”? LOL
Rememgber the fivr-axis milling machines used by Grumman to mill the airframes for the A-6 and EA-6B from a solid block of aluminum that Clinton allowed to be sold to China over the objections by the Pentagon? They weren't supposed to be used for militay purposes. Yeah, Right?
I always have a strong feeling the Bush administration (or Department of State alone) is trying to avoid another cold war, and is keeping a blind eye on China. It’s time to declare a new cold war, and close the market to China. Our money is feeding the Chinese PLA. We are feeding our enemy, feeding our enemy that could develop more devastating weapons. I hope the new Cold War is officially declared.
ping
For this POS Chinese diesel sub-—>>
Sub = RPG
RPGs and anti tank missiles are cheap ways to kill armor
Chi quiet diesel Sub = very low cost way of inflicting great damage on our lumbering warships
Citibank and others have been forced to write down their bullshit mortgage portfolios. My unhappy guess-timate is our huge aircraft carrier groups are also headed to a write down
Not to mention what that says about the Phantom pilot who shot down a friendly aircraft while parked on the flight deck.
There is no value is advertising to your opponent that you are capable of sneaking into the middle of your task group undetected. That would be like the Japanese moving their fleet to within 200 miles of Pearl Harbor and then sending a radio message announcing that they're here. If the Chinese are certain that someday they'll be in a shooting war with us over Taiwan then it makes more sense for them to practice taking out the carriers and remaining quiet about their success or failures.
Paid for with lead-covered toys, contaminated food and drugs and cheap junk sold in America, thanks to globalization and the international corporations.
“Capitalism contains within itself the sseds of its own destruction” Lenin (?)
“It may be last years story, regurgitated.”
It certainly looks like one I read a few months back.
Not being a Navy guy, I dont know sea tactics. It seems like a diesel submarine must make some noise that can be detected. Let’s hope in the lessons learned from this, we actually learn a lesson.
No. It was a missile from another plane that hit his.
A Zuni rocket fired from across the deck. IIRC, it hit one of McCain's external tanks. (I'm not sure if the A4 had wing tanks or a centerline external tank.) The rocket didn't explode but it did get the fire started.
Wikipedia has a good writeup on the incident here:
The dirty little secret is that in a CVBG, BX (the ASW OTC) usually falls to the DESRON commander, who in turn has not a clue how to effectively use a submarine. We’re usually given stovepipes in a out of the way patch of water and sent on wild goose chases.
A submerged diesel/electric boat runs 100% on batteries, and there is nothing quieter. The diesels are only used to charge batteries, while at snorkel depth, once every day or two depending on the sub model, battery output etc.
Do not get me wrong. It's a numbers game and we should have kept the Spruance class in particular. They were excellent ASW platforms, and with the VLS tubes had also developed into very strong multi-role destroyers...they were however weak on AAW. Still, most had a good 15-20 years service life left and instead of at least using them to replace the older vessels in the reserve fleet...the bulk of them we have sunk in live fire exercises.
Of even more concern is the retirement from ASW duties and carrier service of the S-3 Vikings. They were designed specifically for ASW duty, and had long legs (range) for that duty. There is absolutely nothing in service to replace them. All airborne ASW duties for the CSG now are performed by the helos...which, while good, have very short legs. It is true that we use the P-3 Orions as well, but they have to fly from shore and are only of limited use.
An ASW version of the Osprey would help...but the Vikings, or its replacement, were optimized and designed specifically for that purpose.
Having said all of that...my own inside sources tell me Trav that we pretty much rooted this guy out and forced him to the surface. Though we have reitred significant assetts, and in the world today, particularly with China going hells bells in naval buildup, we should have maintained the vast numerical and qualitative advantage that we had.
Just the same, with the Burkes and the helos and the LA Class subs performing ASW duties, we are far better at the ASW job than anyone else in the world.
See my earlier posts, and in particular, post number 115.
Thanks John Walker, Bill Clinton, and all the other pieces of crap in this country.
You're thinking like a westerner, and with all due respect, your Pearl Harbor analogy is off. The IJN was built on the theories of Alfred Thayer Mahan and the ideals of Nelson. It was a main battlefleet modeled on the Royal Navy & designed to confront its opponents.
The Chinese are operating on eastern principles. It's all about misdirection. Sun Tzu: appear strong when you are weak & vise versa.
As to the incident itself. I'm not really all that impressed. It was restricted waters. A sub of that type popping up is akin to running over a mine. Plus, we won't really know if a Los Angeles had it all along, because WE don't advertize our capabilities.
Having seen a lot of A4 Skyhawks as a kid (grew up near Willow Grove NAS), I’d say the most common configuration was a centerline fuel tank.
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