Posted on 10/15/2007 9:21:43 PM PDT by humint
[EXCERPT] Turkish artillery hit the northern villages, while Iranian gunners hit the southern ones.
Iranian troops attempted to cross into Iraq through the mountain passes, but PJAK fighters held the line.
"The goal of the Iranians is to drive us from the border area," rebel leader Biryar Gabar told Newsmax. "They want to turn this area into a no-man's land, so they can use it to smuggle weapons and Islamist guerillas into Iraq to fight the Americans."
(Excerpt) Read more at aina.org ...
True. They ouqht to tell Savage also. Polosi is hardly a cause in this ocean of hatred.
The Kurdish Regional government and Baghdad have both affirmed their opposition to the PKK and PJAK.
PJAK is part of PKK and PKK has been declared a terrorist group by our State Dept. and most if not all European governments.
What possibly could Kurdish Regional government and Baghdad gain from backing PKK and PJAK?
The whole issue of Kurdistan the country is a whole 'nuther issue vis-a-vis Turkey; and it is more related to events in Kirkuk and how much independence the Kurdish Regional government gets. That's when it could hit the fan as the real Kurds (not the Marxist PKK) start talking about uniting with Kurds in Turkey, Iran, Syria, and a little bit of Armenia (I believe).
That is probably what the Kurds in the regional government in Iraq were hoping for all along. Many there do not want to be as radical as the PKK.
They have seen how nice capitalism is and probably just wanted to be rid of the PKK. They had just made an agreement with the rest of Iraq to split their oil with all of Iraq.
However, that will probably never come to be if Turkey goes after the PKK in the territory of the regional authority in Iraq.
Then again, the rest of Iraq was a bit jealous on how much oil the Kurdish Authority was sitting on in Iraq so this might be their excuse to go in and “protect” it.
Messy situation.
Fat chance.
If the Marxist PKK terrorists try to hide among the Kurdistan Regional government the Kurdistan Regional government will kill them. The Kurdistan Regional government will not choose Marxist terrorist over Baghdad and Washington. They ain't stupid.
Comment:
I’ll call or go by Duncan Hunters office tomorrow and see where this is going.
I looked to see if any Republican RINO’s were dumb enough to support this trickery when it was first announced and saw none.
However, you may have other information that amplifies the situation.
Here is an excerpt from a prior thread.
Grandstanding Has Consequences, It’s amateur hour in Congress.
Posted by Dane
On News/Activism 10/15/2007 1:27:52 PM PDT · 40 replies
National Review Online ^ | 19.15.07 | Micahel Rubin
October 15, 2007 11:45 AM Grandstanding Has Consequences It’s amateur hour in Congress. By Michael Rubin Last week, a congressional committee passed a resolution condemning the Armenian genocide. There is no doubt that up to a million Armenians died during World War I, although historians still debate whether their deaths constitute deliberate genocide or are collateral casualties of war. House Democrats brought the resolution to a vote despite entreaties from the White House to postpone it. For Congress, though, the resolution was less about rectifying history than grandstanding. House Foreign Affairs Committee chairman Tom Lantos (D., Cal.) called a vote....
Messy situation.
***It’s even messier than that. Betraying the PKK means the Kurds betray Kurds to their enemies. That’s tough to do.
Here’s what is probably the most likely outcome — the Turks go after the PKK and cause some trouble, round some up but don’t really break the backs of the PKK. But it could prove to the rest of the Kurds that the PKK are losers who just want to fight Turks rather than build a country. In the long term (my kids looking back at this time), they might come to see this Turk incursion as a strengthening of the Kurdish nationalism character & resolve.
” The level of control the Kurds have over their own condition is a variable open to discussion”
Sadly, if the shells start to fly the targets will not be hit with laser accuracy.
Guilty by association and all that.
It will be amazing if we can pull out this situation with our Iraqi marbles intact.
Do you think the dems thought that far ahead?
This seems to be far more than they hoped for (expected?).
“In the long term (my kids looking back at this time), they might come to see this Turk incursion as a strengthening of the Kurdish nationalism character & resolve.”
We can all only hope and pray.
The overall Kurds have made a mistake in giving the PKK sympathetic support, out of misguided tribal solidarity, instead of outright condemning them. Because of that all Kurds will suffer for it.
On what issue? The Democrats are not responsable for the Kurds ambitions for an independent Kurdistan or the PKK's actions in Turkey or PJAK's actions in Iran. On federalism, I've never liked Joe Biden's plan to partition Iraq and neither do the Iraqis (besides Hakim, who wants Basra carved off for him and his militia). As far as the Armenian Genocide debate - it has further aligned Turkey with Iran making Iran more influential and dangerous in the region. I have trouble accepting the idea that any American would intentionally make the situation more volatile, endangering American interests and the lives of our soldiers in the field for partisan political gain. On oil wealth distribution --- there should be a good law pushed through the Iraqi Parliament that should mandate benefits for all Iraqis (including the Kurds) irrespective of sectarian or ethnic differences. Honestly, I don't think many people are thinking very far ahead these days. From 30,000 ft It looks like a bunch of shortsighted power grabs that will lead to more violent conflict.
Then it hit. I'm old. I remember when Marxist groups "began fighting wars of liberation." They were F...ing Communists!
They didn't fight for "for an independent homeland." They wanted to create a "peoples republic."
How many times have the PKK been reported to be fighting for an independent homeland in Turkey?
Independent? Independent from whom? Turkey for sure. PUK? KDP? The Kurdiistan Regional Government in Iraq?
Yes! to all of them.
PUK, KDP, and all the Kurds in the Kurdiistan region of Iraq intend to create their own state. (Which may include eastern Turkey, then! it hits the fan.)
The point: why the hell would PUK, KDP, and all the Kurds in the Kurdiistan region of Iraq help or support in any way the PKK set up business in Turkey?
Abdullah Ocalan the founder of PKK is a threat to the PUK and KDP leaders, if he ever gets out of prison. Ocalan could be the Ernesto "Che" Guevara of that part of the world from what I've read.
Probably the most important thread I’ve read (and need to digest) since the years of x-42 .. bump
I have posted (in replies) several comments about how the Armenians are about to start litigation. No surprise, the purpose of all this is getting money and territory -- enough already with condemning Turkey, make 'em pay. That's always been the ticket.
In particular I've referenced Mr. Harut Sassounian author, publisher, and prominent activist promoting Armenian issues and causes. At this time Armenia and members of the Armenian Diaspora here and all over the world are deciding which court. They are even considering our federal courts.
The Armenian Diaspora here in the U.S. is politically connected and IMO will not care one whit about the security of the United States of America if it interferes with getting what they are after. That's my opinion.
They will think nothing of using their influence over the Rat Party (formerly the traditional, patriotic Democratic Party), for example, which will go along as long as it helps their Party.
We've seen it and we are about to experience the consequences.
The PUK and KDP more than likely tolerated the PKK for the time being, because the PKK kept their agenda in a external projection. While PUK and KDP out number PKK/PJAK times six, to attack them previously would of embroiled the whole of Kurdistan in internal bloody civil war. That would of been ruinous for the PUK/KDP’s agenda, which is to advance a peaceful creation of a autonomous Kurdish homeland of some sort.
If what you posted earlier is correct in the PUK/KDP siding with Turkey in cleaning out the PKK. Then it was just a matter of seizing opportunity to get rid of them. It is kind of like Musharraf’s dealings with the Pushtun Independence Movement/Taliban. He tolerates their doings in Afghanistan, because that is the Afghan’s and American’s problem. But he cracks down on them within his borders. He can’t close the border off otherwise the release valve gets shut off and he is stuck with a rising independence movement that would rip Pakistan in half.
That may have been true on previous votes on the matter, but I’ve read that this time it got 27 votes for in committee, and that is the exact number of Dems on the committee. I was lead to believe it was a party line vote.
Kurdish reactions from here will be depending on what course Turkey takes. Turkey would have played it cool for a bit longer with the Kurds if the Dems had not instituted a statement of genocide on a 102 year old issue that the dems knew would piss off Turkey.
“On oil wealth distribution -— there should be a good law pushed through the Iraqi Parliament that should mandate benefits for all Iraqis (including the Kurds) irrespective of sectarian or ethnic differences. “
I believed they just agreed on that a few weeks ago.
“Honestly, I don’t think many people are thinking very far ahead these days. From 30,000 ft It looks like a bunch of shortsighted power grabs that will lead to more violent conflict.”
Maybe the dems are all at 30,000 feet in their own reality and not farsighted enough to see what their stupid resolution would bring. That was their power grab.
The Turks have been chomping at the bit for several years now over the PKK incursions and acts of terrorism. Their hand was somewhat called by the dems resolution because of islamist representatives in their government who particularly are using the resolution as a reason to incite their citizens to get upset at the U.S.
That caused a “let’s see whose needs who” reaction with the Kurds, Turkish legislature, Turkish military (who needs to at least act incensed) U.S. congress, the autonomous Kurds in Iraq, etc and the Iranians and elements in Turkey who want to get the oil pipeline laid and running in $$, and Iran who will jump into any conflict especially if it knocks us off our game.
There are many more layers and wheels than that. My question of “Do you think the dems thought that far ahead?” Was more along the lines of “Do you think the dems are smart enough to actually understand how far their childish play could muddy the waters or where the just trying to get our overflight access stopped.
I can’t see them being smart enough to see all the moves and players this would invite.
Therefore we must be involved
We can all only hope and pray.
***Agreed. Except we can also ACT. The average Iraqi, whether Sunni, Shiite, Kurd or whatever, wants a representative democracy. If we let a NATO ally knock out a budding democracy, they’ll know this whole thing isn’t really about building a democracy, it’s about securing oil supplies.
I’ve read that this time
***My understanding is that there wouldn’t BE a “this time” if there hadn’t been republicans sponsoring and/or voting for it at each step. These anti-war democrats may have just lined up with enough anti-war republicans to, **ahem** start a war.
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